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From: dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 15:45:50 -0400
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On 3/28/2025 3:38 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/28/2025 2:20 PM, dbush wrote:
>> On 3/28/2025 3:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/28/2025 4:33 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 28.mrt.2025 om 02:21 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:09 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:07 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:38 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:12 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:02 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:27 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 2:18 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.mrt.2025 om 04:09 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2025 8:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting is that the machine won't reach its final 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> staste even if an unbounded number of steps are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated. Since HHH doesn't do that, it isn't showing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-halting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by any HHH will never reach its final state
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in an unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH1 reaches its final state in a finite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not very interesting to know whether a simulator 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reports that it is unable to reach the end of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation of a program that halts in direct execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That IS NOT what HHH is reporting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly rejects DDD because DDD correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, HHH is not a halt decider because it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not computing the required mapping:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 3:19:42 PM UTC-5, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>  > In other words you could find any error in my post so you 
>>>>>>>>>>>> resort to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>  > lame tactic of ad hominem personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/22/2024 10:51 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>  > *Ad Hominem attacks are the first resort of clueless wonders*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I corrected your error dozens of times and you
>>>>>>>>> ignore these corrections and mindlessly repeat
>>>>>>>>> your error like a bot 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which is what you've been doing for the last three years.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Projection, as always.  I'll add the above to the list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TM's cannot possibly ever report on the behavior
>>>>>>> of the direct execution of another TM. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> False:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I did not say that no TM can ever report on
>>>>> behavior that matches the behavior of a directly
>>>>> executing TM.
>>>>>
>>>>> No TM can every directly see the behavior of the
>>>>> direct execution of any other TM because no TM can
>>>>> take a directly executing TM as an input.
>>>>>
>>>> So we agree that the answer for:
>>>> 'Is there an algorithm that can determine for all possible inputs 
>>>> whether the input specifies a program that (according to the 
>>>> semantics of the machine language) halts when directly executed?'
>>>> is 'no'. Correct?
>>>
>>> In the same way: Is there an algorithm that correctly
>>> determines the square root of a box of rocks?
>>>
>>
>>
>> In other words, you're saying that there's a TM/input where the 
>> question of whether or not it halts when executed directly has no 
>> correct yes or no answer.
>>
>> Show it.
>>
> 
> I proved it many times and because you are a Troll you
> ignored the proof that by definition no TM can take
> an executing TM as its input, thus cannot possibly
> report on something that it does not see.

You have shown no such machine that neither halts nor doesn't halt when 
executed directly.

> 
>> Failure to do so in your next message is your on-the-record admission 
>> that the above question is valid.
> 
> When include ALL of the relevant details to the question
> it becomes:
> 
> What Boolean value can decider H correctly return when input
> D is able to do the opposite of whatever value that H returns?
> 
> We can reject this question entirely when we discard its
> false assumption. 


And that false assumption is that an H exists that behaves as specified 
below, proving Linz:


Given any algorithm (i.e. a fixed immutable sequence of instructions) X 
described as <X> with input Y:

A solution to the halting problem is an algorithm H that computes the 
following mapping:

(<X>,Y) maps to 1 if and only if X(Y) halts when executed directly
(<X>,Y) maps to 0 if and only if X(Y) does not halt when executed directly