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From: dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 16:37:16 -0400
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On 3/28/2025 4:23 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/28/2025 2:43 PM, dbush wrote:
>> On 3/28/2025 3:27 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/28/2025 2:17 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>> On 3/28/2025 3:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/28/2025 1:12 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 1:57 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:33 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 10:10 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:24 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:21 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:09 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:07 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:38 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:12 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:02 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:27 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 2:18 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.mrt.2025 om 04:09 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2025 8:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting is that the machine won't reach its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final staste even if an unbounded number of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steps are emulated. Since HHH doesn't do that, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it isn't showing non-halting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by any HHH will never reach its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final state
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in an unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH1 reaches its final state in a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not very interesting to know whether a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulator reports that it is unable to reach the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> end of the simulation of a program that halts in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> direct execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That IS NOT what HHH is reporting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly rejects DDD because DDD correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, HHH is not a halt decider because it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not computing the required mapping:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 3:19:42 PM UTC-5, olcott 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > In other words you could find any error in my post 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so you resort to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > lame tactic of ad hominem personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/22/2024 10:51 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > *Ad Hominem attacks are the first resort of clueless 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonders*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I corrected your error dozens of times and you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignore these corrections and mindlessly repeat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your error like a bot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is what you've been doing for the last three years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Projection, as always.  I'll add the above to the list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> TM's cannot possibly ever report on the behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the direct execution of another TM. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> False:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I did not say that no TM can ever report on
>>>>>>>>>>> behavior that matches the behavior of a directly
>>>>>>>>>>> executing TM.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good, because that's all that's required for a solution to the 
>>>>>>>>>> halting problem:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are sometimes when the behavior of TM Description
>>>>>>>>> D correctly simulated by UTM1 does not match the behavior
>>>>>>>>> correctly simulated by UTM2.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Irrelevant, because to satisfy the requirements, the behavior of 
>>>>>>>> the described machine when executed directly must be reported.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I HAVE PROVED THAT THE REQUIREMENT IS WRONG NITWIT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Category error.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I want to know if any arbitrary algorithm X with input Y will halt 
>>>>>> when executed directly. 
>>>>>
>>>>> It is 100% impossible for any TM to take another executing
>>>>> TM as its input. 
>>>>
>>>> But it can take a complete description of a TM that 
>>>
>>> Is not always a perfect proxy for the behavior
>>> of the direct execution of the underlying machine.
>>>
>>
>> It is when that description is composed of the code of the function 
>> DDD, the code of the function HHH, and the code of everything that HHH 
>> calls down to the OS level.
>>
>>
>> It's doesn't matter what HHH is capable of doing.  It only matters 
>> that the description contains all the necessary code to run it directly.
>>
> 
> Fully operational code has proved


That DDD halts when executed directly, therefore to meet the 
requirements HHH would have to return 1, but it does not.