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From: dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 18:30:09 -0400
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On 3/28/2025 6:09 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/28/2025 3:38 PM, dbush wrote:
>> On 3/28/2025 4:30 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/28/2025 2:24 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>> On 3/28/2025 3:21 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/28/2025 4:43 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>> Op 28.mrt.2025 om 03:13 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/27/25 9:07 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:38 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:12 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:02 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:27 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 2:18 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.mrt.2025 om 04:09 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2025 8:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting is that the machine won't reach its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final staste even if an unbounded number of steps 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are emulated. Since HHH doesn't do that, it isn't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> showing non-halting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by any HHH will never reach its final state
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in an unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH1 reaches its final state in a finite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not very interesting to know whether a simulator 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reports that it is unable to reach the end of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation of a program that halts in direct execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That IS NOT what HHH is reporting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly rejects DDD because DDD correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, HHH is not a halt decider because it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not computing the required mapping:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 3:19:42 PM UTC-5, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > In other words you could find any error in my post so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you resort to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > lame tactic of ad hominem personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/22/2024 10:51 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>  > *Ad Hominem attacks are the first resort of clueless 
>>>>>>>>>>>> wonders*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I corrected your error dozens of times and you
>>>>>>>>>>> ignore these corrections and mindlessly repeat
>>>>>>>>>>> your error like a bot 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which is what you've been doing for the last three years.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Projection, as always.  I'll add the above to the list.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TM's cannot possibly ever report on the behavior
>>>>>>>>> of the direct execution of another TM. I proved
>>>>>>>>> this many times in may ways. Ignoring these proofs
>>>>>>>>> IT NOT ANY FORM OF REBUTTAL.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sure they can.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WHere is your proof? And what actual accepted principles is is 
>>>>>>>> based on?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No TM can take another directly executed TM as an input
>>>>>>> and Turing computable functions only compute the mapping
>>>>>>> from inputs to outputs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If A TM can only compute the mapping from *its* input to *its* 
>>>>>> output, it cannot be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Taking a wild guess does not count as computing the mapping.
>>>>
>>>> False.  The only requirement is to map a member of the input domain 
>>>> to a member of the output domain as per the requirements.
>>>>
>>>> If it does so in all cases, the mapping is computed.  It doesn't 
>>>> matter how it's done.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Unless an input is transformed into an output
>>> on the basis of a syntactic or semantic property
>>> of this input it is not a Turing computable function.
>>>
>>> int StringLength(char *S)
>>> {
>>>    return 5;
>>> }
>>>
>>> Does not compute the string length of any string.
>>>
>>
>>
>> False.  It computes the length of all strings of length 5.
> 
> It does not compute (a sequence of steps of an
> algorithm that derive an output on the basis of
> an input) jack shit it makes a guess.
> 

Doesn't matter. If the requirement is to return 5 for strings that have 
a length of 5, it meets the requirement.