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From: "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2025 09:52:04 +0100
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Op 28.mrt.2025 om 20:15 schreef olcott:
> On 3/28/2025 4:33 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>> Op 28.mrt.2025 om 02:21 schreef olcott:
>>> On 3/27/2025 8:09 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:07 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:38 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:12 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:02 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:27 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 2:18 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.mrt.2025 om 04:09 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2025 8:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting is that the machine won't reach its final 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> staste even if an unbounded number of steps are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated. Since HHH doesn't do that, it isn't showing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-halting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by any HHH will never reach its final state
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in an unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH1 reaches its final state in a finite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not very interesting to know whether a simulator 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reports that it is unable to reach the end of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation of a program that halts in direct execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That IS NOT what HHH is reporting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly rejects DDD because DDD correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own
>>>>>>>>>>>>> final halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, HHH is not a halt decider because it is not 
>>>>>>>>>>>> computing the required mapping:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 3:19:42 PM UTC-5, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>  > In other words you could find any error in my post so you 
>>>>>>>>>> resort to the
>>>>>>>>>>  > lame tactic of ad hominem personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/22/2024 10:51 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>  > *Ad Hominem attacks are the first resort of clueless wonders*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I corrected your error dozens of times and you
>>>>>>> ignore these corrections and mindlessly repeat
>>>>>>> your error like a bot 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is what you've been doing for the last three years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Projection, as always.  I'll add the above to the list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> TM's cannot possibly ever report on the behavior
>>>>> of the direct execution of another TM. 
>>>>
>>>> False:
>>>>
>>>
>>> I did not say that no TM can ever report on
>>> behavior that matches the behavior of a directly
>>> executing TM.
>>>
>>> No TM can every directly see the behavior of the
>>> direct execution of any other TM because no TM can
>>> take a directly executing TM as an input.
>>>
>> So we agree that the answer for:
>> 'Is there an algorithm that can determine for all possible inputs 
>> whether the input specifies a program that (according to the semantics 
>> of the machine language) halts when directly executed?'
>> is 'no'. Correct?
> 
> In the same way: Is there an algorithm that correctly
> determines the square root of a box of rocks?
> 

Do you mean that the answer for this question is 'no'?
Then we agree that the answer for the question:
'Is there an algorithm that can determine for all possible inputs 
whether the input specifies a program that (according to the semantics 
of the machine language) halts when directly executed?'
is also 'no'. Correct?