Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2025 22:13:25 -0500
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In-Reply-To: <4285ea3219a2d5f2d6c52e84697fa4e3d3dc80cb@i2pn2.org>

On 3/30/2025 9:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 3/30/25 10:13 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/30/2025 7:32 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 3/30/25 7:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/30/2025 5:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/30/25 5:53 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 4:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 3:42 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 8:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Op 30.mrt.2025 om 04:35 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 8:12 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/25 6:44 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 5:08 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 5:46 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:14 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 4:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 2:26 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 2:06 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 10:23 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 11:12 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 11:00 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 11:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It defines that it must compute the mapping from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the direct execution of a Turing Machine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which does not require tracing an actual running 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TM, only mapping properties of the TM described. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The key fact that you continue to dishonestly ignore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the concrete counter-example that I provided that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusively proves that the finite string of machine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> code input is not always a valid proxy for the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the underlying virtual machine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, you deny the concept of a UTM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which can take a description of any Turing machine 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and exactly reproduce the behavior of the direct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I deny that a pathological relationship between a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its input can be correctly ignored.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In such a case, the UTM will not halt, and neither 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will the input when executed directly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not impossible to adapt a UTM such that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly simulates a finite number of steps of an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) then you no longer have a UTM, so statements about a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM don't apply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We can know that when this adapted UTM simulates a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite number of steps of its input that this finite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of steps were simulated correctly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And therefore does not do a correct UTM simulation that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the behavior of the direct execution as it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incomplete.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is dishonest to expect non-terminating inputs to complete.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> An input that halts when executed directly is not non- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) changing the input is not allowed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The input is unchanged. There never was any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indication that the input was in any way changed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> False, if the starting function calls UTM and UTM 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes, you're changing the input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When UTM1 is a UTM that has been adapted to only simulate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a finite number of steps 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And is therefore no longer a UTM that does a correct and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete simulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and input D calls UTM1 then the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of D simulated by UTM1 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is not what I asked about.  I asked about the behavior of D 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when executed directly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Off topic for this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM1 D DOES NOT HALT
>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM2 D HALTS
>>>>>>>>>>>> D is the same finite string in both cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No it isn't, not if it is the definition of a PROGRAM.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The behavior that these machine code bytes specify:
>>>>>>>>>> 558bec6872210000e853f4ffff83c4045dc3
>>>>>>>>>> as an input to HHH is different than these
>>>>>>>>>> same bytes as input to HHH1 as a verified fact.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Or, are you admitting you don't understand the meaning of a 
>>>>>>>>>>> program?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It seems that you "just don't believe in" verified facts.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That completely depends on who has verified it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No it does not. That is a stupid thing to say.
>>>>>>>> Every verified fact IS TRUE BY DEFINITION.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, if the verifiers lies, then his "verification" isn't valid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is not the way semantic tautology works.
>>>>>> If the father of lies says that cats are animals
>>>>>> then cats are still animals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or, do you accept the verification by the election deniers that 
>>>>>>> show that there was the possibility of the fraud,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is a possibility that five minutes ago never existed.
>>>>>> Claiming that there was fraud when you know there was no
>>>>>> evidence of fraud might get you eternally incinerated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A guess you have to or you are admitting yourself to be a hypocrite.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If everyone can see that the way in which Olcott verifies his 
>>>>>>>>> 'facts' is only a baseless claim, I do not believe in the 
>>>>>>>>> verification. In particular when he does not fix the errors in 
>>>>>>>>> the verification that were pointed out to him.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My claims are verified as true entirely on the basis
>>>>>>>> of the  meaning of their words.
>>>>>>>>
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