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Path: ...!fu-berlin.de!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: How is the Intelligent Design Movement Doing? Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2025 08:31:32 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 200 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: <vse5fl$a92i$1@dont-email.me> References: <vs9rp2$2e76f$1@dont-email.me> <5sihujttjseqcekfruh1h7me5iauamr6s2@4ax.com> <vsboe4$1ot7u$2@dont-email.me> Reply-To: rokimoto557@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="16358"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:5FYCAz3qImgwBtmNzNPVa5W9IRE= Return-Path: <news@eternal-september.org> X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id 72F6622978C; Mon, 31 Mar 2025 09:31:51 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CE34229783 for <talk-origins@ediacara.org>; Mon, 31 Mar 2025 09:31:49 -0400 (EDT) by moderators.individual.net (Exim 4.98) for talk-origins@moderators.isc.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (envelope-from <news@eternal-september.org>) id 1tzFEr-000000041VZ-1XbI; Mon, 31 Mar 2025 15:31:41 +0200 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.eternal-september.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA3CD622BD for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Mon, 31 Mar 2025 13:31:34 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: name/EA3CD622BD; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com id AA4FBDC01CA; Mon, 31 Mar 2025 15:31:34 +0200 (CEST) X-Injection-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2025 15:31:33 +0200 (CEST) Content-Language: en-US X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX193TuqjdmVx6Z5PXerVYUO0f0W9Czk2ng0= In-Reply-To: <vsboe4$1ot7u$2@dont-email.me> DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FORGED_REPLYTO, FREEMAIL_REPLYTO_END_DIGIT,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LOTS_OF_MONEY, MONEY_FREEMAIL_REPTO,MONEY_NOHTML,NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED,RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED,RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS, SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED,URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS,USER_IN_WELCOMELIST,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 smtp.eternal-september.org Bytes: 15062 On 3/30/2025 10:36 AM, RonO wrote: > On 3/29/2025 11:58 PM, jillery wrote: >> On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 17:21:21 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> https://seanmcdowell.org/blog/how-is-the-intelligent-design-movement- >>> doing-interview-with-william-dembski >>> >>> I found this Dembski interview while looking for any evidence that the >>> ID bait and switch scam had any type of future. The interview was from >>> 2016 a couple of years before Dembski had retired from the ID scam as an >>> abject failure. None of Dembski's junk made it into the Top Six, so >>> that tells you how highly Dembski's "ID science" was regarded by the >>> other ID perps in 2017. >>> >>> As crazy as it may seem along with the usual lies about ID still being >>> viable for anything but bait, Dembski is admitting that the ID perps >>> wanted more religious support from more Christian denominations. This >>> indicates what a lie the ID scam science claims have always been. Real >>> science does not need support from organized religion. >>> >>> QUOTE: >>> (2) In my remarks about the role of the church in advancing ID, I was >>> trying to be a bit provocative to get people thinking. To be sure, >>> well-wishers of ID abound in Christian circles. But how many are willing >>> to put their necks on the chopping block and make a real difference in >>> the scientific and cultural debate? As 19th century activist Annie >>> Besant put it: >>> >>> Plenty of people wish well to any good cause, but very few care to exert >>> themselves to help it, and still fewer will risk anything in its >>> support. “Some one ought to do it, but why should I?” is the ever >>> re-echoed phrase of weak-kneed amiability. “Some one ought to do it, so >>> why not I?” is the cry of some earnest servant of man, eagerly forward >>> springing to face some perilous duty. >>> >>> So, how much good has the Christian community really done in advancing >>> ID? Sure, there have been pockets of genuine support in the Christian >>> community. But why is the first and only ID think-tank/research center >>> at a Christian college or university Baylor's Michael Polanyi Center >>> (which I founded in 1999, and which was dismantled the following year >>> --- thanks in this case not to young-earth creationists but to theistic >>> evolutionists)? And why is the $100M spent on a Noah's Ark theme park >>> several times more than has been spent on all ID efforts over the last >>> 20 years? Let's get some sense of proportion. >>> END QUOTE: >>> >>> The ID perps have disenfranchised most of the YEC denominations because >>> they have run the bait and switch on the creationist rubes too many >>> times, and nearly all of them have dropped the issue instead of bending >>> over for the switch scam. The creationists rubes do not want to teach >>> the obfuscation and denial if they can't tell the students the religious >>> reason for lying to them. West Virginia in 2024 indicates that there >>> are still YEC creationist rubes that will take the bait, but it is >>> obviously for dishonest religious reasons. >>> >>> You should read this interview in context. Dembski got first hand >>> experience with what type of theocracy the ID perps were trying to >>> recreate by being forced to recant and apologize to his students at the >>> religious college he was teaching at, in order to keep his job. He had >>> just told them the truth, that the earth and universe were likely much >>> older than depicted in the Bible and that the Noachian flood was likely >>> local instead of global. If he had not recanted and apologized he would >>> have been fired. As it was his contract was not renewed and Dembski >>> ended up working full time for the ID scam unit of the Discovery >>> Institute putting out ID as bait. Dembski failed to produce any >>> convincing ID science scam material that could be used as useful bait, >>> and Dembski "retired" from the ID scam and the Discovery Institute in >>> 2014 (I think it was 2014). He claimed that he was moving on from the >>> ID scam, and wanted to go into education. He was a failure at trying to >>> turn a new leaf and got hired back at the ID scam unit a couple of years >>> after this interview (after the ID perps had killed ID on TO by putting >>> out the Top Six best evidences for ID at the end of 2017). >>> >>> Ron Okimoto >> >> >> My impression is the movement has shifted its strategy, from pushing >> to teach ID in public schools, to using public taxes to pay for >> private schools. Along with SCOTUS providing religious exemptions for >> otherwise illegal activity, eliminating the Department of Education, >> as Trump advocates, would practically guarantee this to happen. >> >> People like Stephen Meyer, a longtime ID advocate, has teamed up with >> Prager University to spread the word: >> >> <https://intelligentdesign.org/prageru/> > > After the ID perps lost so badly in Dover, the fact that they were > actively trying to get the Dover rubes to not teach the ID scam junk > before the issue went to court, and the fact that half of the ID perps > ran instead of testifying pretty much made the ID scam unit at the > Discovery Institute look like it wasn't a very Christian organization. > Everyone should recall the press releases coming out of the ID scam unit > at the Discovery Institute after the Dover rubes announced that they > were not going to bend over for the switch scam, and that they were > going to try to teach ID without mentioning the ID scam unit. The ID > perps were whining that the Dover rubes were not listening to reason and > that they did not want them to try to teach the ID science in the public > schools. No one should have missed the fact that the bait and switch > had gone down on 100% of the creationist rubes that had wanted to teach > ID in the public schools, and that the ID perps were the ones running > the bait and switch scam. Even though the ID perps were claiming that > ID could be taught in the public schools not a single creationist rube > had ever gotten any ID science to teach in the preceding 3 years that > the bait and switch had been going down. > > The ID perps started claiming that it was a science and religion issue > as your web site demonstrates is still going on. They tried to wrap > themselves in the cloak of their religious beliefs in order to deflect > the fact that they were obviously the dishonest bad guys in the whole > stupid fiasco. They started claiming that they were on the side of > religion even though they had been running a stupid bait and switch scam > on the creationist rubes for years. I should note that the retreat to their religious roots happened after the loss in Dover. It was their only excuse for running the bogus ID scam for a decade. When they realized that the ID scam was going to be tested in the Federal courts they initially tried to distance themselves from their own religious beliefs. They cleaned up the ISCID web site that had been moribund since the bait and switch had started to go down. The last "science" paper had been put up in early 2003, and the site was pretty much dead by 2005, but the ID perps took it over and reformated the site. What should be noted is that they obviously removed some of the papers that had been put up on the original web site. You couldn't find the flood geology paper (yes a paper trying to support Noah's flood) that had been up on the ISCID site for years, after the ID perps reformat of the site. I recall that they only boosted their religious arguments after the failure of the ID scam in the Federal court. Ron Okimoto > > They started their religious web sites, and their creationist news site > started to have religious categories instead of just being creationist > anti-science. They are just using their religious beliefs to try to > make the rubes believe that they are still the good guys even though the > bait and switch continues to go down as West Virginia is the latest > example. They never retracted their teach ID scam propaganda, and they > even doubled down after Dover claiming that the Dover decision was > wrong, and that it is still legal to teach ID in the public schools. > They could not give up on using ID as bait. After Dover the ID Network > tried to sell the switch scam by changing the name of their organization > to COPE and dropping ID from their name, and they had a 100% failure of > selling the switch scam. Zero takers, so they went back to being the ID ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========