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From: dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2025 18:17:36 -0400
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On 3/31/2025 6:12 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/31/2025 3:44 PM, joes wrote:
>> Am Sun, 30 Mar 2025 21:13:09 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>> On 3/30/2025 7:32 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 3/30/25 7:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/30/2025 5:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/30/25 5:53 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 4:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 3:42 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 8:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Op 30.mrt.2025 om 04:35 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 8:12 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/25 6:44 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 5:08 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 5:46 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:14 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 4:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 2:26 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 2:06 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 10:23 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 11:12 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 11:00 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 11:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An input that halts when executed directly is not non-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminating
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When UTM1 is a UTM that has been adapted to only simulate a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite number of steps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And is therefore no longer a UTM that does a correct and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete simulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and input D calls UTM1 then the behavior of D simulated by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is not what I asked about.  I asked about the behavior of D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when executed directly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Off topic for this thread.
>> Yes, HHH is off the topic of deciding halting.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM1 D DOES NOT HALT UTM2 D HALTS D is the same finite string
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in both cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>> No it isn't, not if it is the definition of a PROGRAM.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The behavior that these machine code bytes specify:
>>>>>>>>>>> 558bec6872210000e853f4ffff83c4045dc3 as an input to HHH is
>>>>>>>>>>> different than these same bytes as input to HHH1 as a verified
>>>>>>>>>>> fact.
>> What does "specify to" mean? Which behaviour is correct?
>>
>>>>>>> DDD EMULATED BY HHH DOES SPECIFY THAT IT CANNOT POSSIBLY REACH ITS
>>>>>>> OWN FINAL HALT STATE.
>>>>>> How does HHH emulate the call to HHH instruction
>>>>> The semantics of the x86 language.
>>>> Right, which were defined by INTEL, and requires the data emulated to
>>>> be part of the input.
>>> It is part of the input in the sense that HHH must emulate itself
>>> emulating DDD. HHH it the test program thus not the program-under-test.
>> It is part of the program under test, being called by it. That's what
>> you call a pathological relationship.
>>
>>> HHH is not asking does itself halt?
>> Yes it is saying "I can't simulate this".
>>
>>> It was encoded to always halt for
>>> such inputs. HHH is asking does this input specify that it reaches its
>>> own final halt state?
>> Which it does (except when simulated by HHH).
>>
>>>> Is it guessing based on your limited input that doesn't contain the
>>>> code at 000015d2, or
>>>> Is it admitting to not being a pure function, by looking outsde the
>>>> input to the function (since you say that above is the full input), or
>>>> Are you admitting all of Halt7.c/obj as part of the input, and thus you
>>>> hae a FIXED definition of HHH, which thus NEVER does a complete
>>>> emulation, and thus you can't say that the call to HHH is a complete
>>>> emulation.
>>>>
>>>>> How we we determine that DDD emulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its
>>>>> final halt state?
>>>>> Two recursive emulations provide correct inductive proof.
>>>> Nope, because if you admit to the first two lies, your HHH never was a
>>>> valid decider,
> 
> It is ALWAYS CORRECT for any simulating termination
> analyzer to stop simulating and reject any input
> that would otherwise prevent its own termination.
> 
> 

Except when doing so changes the input, as is the case with HHH and DDD.

Changing the input is not allowed.