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From: dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2025 22:26:27 -0400
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On 3/31/2025 10:12 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/31/2025 8:39 PM, dbush wrote:
>> On 3/31/2025 9:26 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/31/2025 8:03 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>> On 3/31/2025 8:56 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/31/2025 7:25 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 7:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 5:54 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 6:30 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 5:17 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 6:12 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 3:44 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 30 Mar 2025 21:13:09 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 7:32 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 7:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 5:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 5:53 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 4:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 3:42 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 8:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 30.mrt.2025 om 04:35 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 8:12 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/25 6:44 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 5:08 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 5:46 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:14 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 4:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 2:26 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 2:06 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 10:23 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 11:12 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 11:00 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 11:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An input that halts when executed directly is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not non-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminating
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When UTM1 is a UTM that has been adapted to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only simulate a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite number of steps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And is therefore no longer a UTM that does a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete simulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and input D calls UTM1 then the behavior of D 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is not what I asked about.  I asked about the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when executed directly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Off topic for this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, HHH is off the topic of deciding halting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM1 D DOES NOT HALT UTM2 D HALTS D is the same 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite string
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in both cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it isn't, not if it is the definition of a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PROGRAM.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The behavior that these machine code bytes specify:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 558bec6872210000e853f4ffff83c4045dc3 as an input to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different than these same bytes as input to HHH1 as 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a verified
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact.
>>>>>>>>>>>> What does "specify to" mean? Which behaviour is correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD EMULATED BY HHH DOES SPECIFY THAT IT CANNOT 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> POSSIBLY REACH ITS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OWN FINAL HALT STATE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How does HHH emulate the call to HHH instruction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The semantics of the x86 language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, which were defined by INTEL, and requires the data 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be part of the input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is part of the input in the sense that HHH must emulate 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulating DDD. HHH it the test program thus not the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> program- under- test.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is part of the program under test, being called by it. 
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's what
>>>>>>>>>>>> you call a pathological relationship.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is not asking does itself halt?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes it is saying "I can't simulate this".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was encoded to always halt for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such inputs. HHH is asking does this input specify that it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaches its
>>>>>>>>>>>>> own final halt state?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Which it does (except when simulated by HHH).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it guessing based on your limited input that doesn't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contain the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> code at 000015d2, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it admitting to not being a pure function, by looking 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> outsde the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input to the function (since you say that above is the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full input), or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you admitting all of Halt7.c/obj as part of the input, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and thus you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hae a FIXED definition of HHH, which thus NEVER does a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation, and thus you can't say that the call to HHH is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How we we determine that DDD emulated by HHH cannot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly reach its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final halt state?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Two recursive emulations provide correct inductive proof.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, because if you admit to the first two lies, your HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> valid decider,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is ALWAYS CORRECT for any simulating termination
>>>>>>>>>>> analyzer to stop simulating and reject any input
>>>>>>>>>>> that would otherwise prevent its own termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Except when doing so changes the input, as is the case with 
>>>>>>>>>> HHH and DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Changing the input is not allowed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have already addressed your misconception that the input is 
>>>>>>>>> changed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it is YOUR misconception.  The algorithm DDD consists of the 
>>>>>>>> function DDD, the function HHH, and everything that HHH calls 
>>>>>>>> down to the OS level.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We have already been over this.
>>>>>>> HHH(DDD) and HHH1(DDD) have the same inputs all the way
>>>>>>> down to the OS level. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you agree that the input to both is the immutable code of the 
>>>>>> function DDD, the immutable code of the function HHH, and the 
>>>>>> immutable code of everything that HHH calls down to the OS level.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is the input in terms of the behavior of DDD emulated
>>>>> by HHH, yet only DDD is the program-under-test.
>>>>
>>>> False.  The function DDD by itself is not a program.  The function 
>>>> DDD, the function HHH, and everything that HHH calls down the OS 
>>>> level are *all* under test.
>>>>
>>>
>>> *Simulating termination analyzer Principle*
>>> It is always correct for any simulating termination
>>> analyzer to stop simulating and reject any input
>>> that would otherwise prevent its own termination.
>>>
>>
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========