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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2025 21:38:25 -0500
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On 3/31/2025 9:26 PM, dbush wrote:
> On 3/31/2025 10:12 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/31/2025 8:39 PM, dbush wrote:
>>> On 3/31/2025 9:26 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/31/2025 8:03 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>> On 3/31/2025 8:56 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 7:25 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 7:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 5:54 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 6:30 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 5:17 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 6:12 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 3:44 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 30 Mar 2025 21:13:09 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 7:32 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 7:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 5:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 5:53 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 4:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 3:42 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 8:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 30.mrt.2025 om 04:35 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 8:12 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/25 6:44 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 5:08 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 5:46 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:14 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 4:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 2:26 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 2:06 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 10:23 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 11:12 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 11:00 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 11:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An input that halts when executed directly is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not non-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When UTM1 is a UTM that has been adapted to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only simulate a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite number of steps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And is therefore no longer a UTM that does a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete simulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and input D calls UTM1 then the behavior of D 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is not what I asked about.  I asked about the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when executed directly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Off topic for this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, HHH is off the topic of deciding halting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM1 D DOES NOT HALT UTM2 D HALTS D is the same 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite string
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in both cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it isn't, not if it is the definition of a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PROGRAM.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The behavior that these machine code bytes specify:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 558bec6872210000e853f4ffff83c4045dc3 as an input 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to HHH is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different than these same bytes as input to HHH1 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a verified
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does "specify to" mean? Which behaviour is correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD EMULATED BY HHH DOES SPECIFY THAT IT CANNOT 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> POSSIBLY REACH ITS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OWN FINAL HALT STATE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How does HHH emulate the call to HHH instruction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The semantics of the x86 language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, which were defined by INTEL, and requires the data 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be part of the input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is part of the input in the sense that HHH must emulate 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulating DDD. HHH it the test program thus not the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> program- under- test.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is part of the program under test, being called by it. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you call a pathological relationship.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is not asking does itself halt?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes it is saying "I can't simulate this".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was encoded to always halt for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such inputs. HHH is asking does this input specify that it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaches its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own final halt state?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which it does (except when simulated by HHH).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it guessing based on your limited input that doesn't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contain the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> code at 000015d2, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it admitting to not being a pure function, by looking 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> outsde the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input to the function (since you say that above is the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full input), or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you admitting all of Halt7.c/obj as part of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input, and thus you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hae a FIXED definition of HHH, which thus NEVER does a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation, and thus you can't say that the call to HHH is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How we we determine that DDD emulated by HHH cannot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly reach its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final halt state?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Two recursive emulations provide correct inductive proof.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, because if you admit to the first two lies, your 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH never was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> valid decider,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is ALWAYS CORRECT for any simulating termination
>>>>>>>>>>>> analyzer to stop simulating and reject any input
>>>>>>>>>>>> that would otherwise prevent its own termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Except when doing so changes the input, as is the case with 
>>>>>>>>>>> HHH and DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Changing the input is not allowed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have already addressed your misconception that the input is 
>>>>>>>>>> changed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it is YOUR misconception.  The algorithm DDD consists of 
>>>>>>>>> the function DDD, the function HHH, and everything that HHH 
>>>>>>>>> calls down to the OS level.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We have already been over this.
>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD) and HHH1(DDD) have the same inputs all the way
>>>>>>>> down to the OS level. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you agree that the input to both is the immutable code of the 
>>>>>>> function DDD, the immutable code of the function HHH, and the 
>>>>>>> immutable code of everything that HHH calls down to the OS level.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is the input in terms of the behavior of DDD emulated
>>>>>> by HHH, yet only DDD is the program-under-test.
>>>>>
>>>>> False.  The function DDD by itself is not a program.  The function 
>>>>> DDD, the function HHH, and everything that HHH calls down the OS 
>>>>> level are *all* under test.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Simulating termination analyzer Principle*
>>>> It is always correct for any simulating termination
>>>> analyzer to stop simulating and reject any input
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