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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1 ---
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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2025 21:33:30 -0500
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On 4/1/2025 8:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 4/1/25 7:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/1/2025 5:09 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>> Op 01.apr.2025 om 04:19 schreef olcott:
>>>> On 3/31/2025 8:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/31/25 8:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 7:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/31/25 7:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 5:32 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/31/25 2:16 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 3:24 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Op 31.mrt.2025 om 05:13 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 9:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 10:13 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 7:32 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 7:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 5:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 5:53 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 4:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 3:42 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 8:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 30.mrt.2025 om 04:35 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 8:12 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/25 6:44 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 5:08 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 5:46 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:14 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 4:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 2:26 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 2:06 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 10:23 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 11:12 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 11:00 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 11:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It defines that it must compute the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mapping from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the direct execution of a Turing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Machine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which does not require tracing an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual running TM, only mapping 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> properties of the TM described. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The key fact that you continue to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dishonestly ignore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the concrete counter-example that I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusively proves that the finite 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> string of machine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> code input is not always a valid proxy 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the underlying virtual machine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, you deny the concept of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a UTM, which can take a description of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any Turing machine and exactly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reproduce the behavior of the direct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I deny that a pathological relationship 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between a UTM and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its input can be correctly ignored.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In such a case, the UTM will not halt, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and neither will the input when executed 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not impossible to adapt a UTM such 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly simulates a finite number of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steps of an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) then you no longer have a UTM, so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statements about a UTM don't apply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We can know that when this adapted UTM 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite number of steps of its input that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this finite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of steps were simulated correctly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And therefore does not do a correct UTM 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation that matches the behavior of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> direct execution as it is incomplete.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is dishonest to expect non-terminating 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inputs to complete.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An input that halts when executed directly is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not non- terminating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) changing the input is not allowed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The input is unchanged. There never was any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indication that the input was in any way 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> False, if the starting function calls UTM and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM changes, you're changing the input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When UTM1 is a UTM that has been adapted to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only simulate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a finite number of steps 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And is therefore no longer a UTM that does a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct and complete simulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and input D calls UTM1 then the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of D simulated by UTM1 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is not what I asked about.  I asked about the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of D when executed directly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Off topic for this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM1 D DOES NOT HALT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM2 D HALTS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D is the same finite string in both cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it isn't, not if it is the definition of a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PROGRAM.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The behavior that these machine code bytes specify:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 558bec6872210000e853f4ffff83c4045dc3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as an input to HHH is different than these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same bytes as input to HHH1 as a verified fact.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or, are you admitting you don't understand the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning of a program?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems that you "just don't believe in" verified 
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