Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: energy in UK
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2025 15:27:46 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 171
Message-ID: <vtmmh7$mjlu$1@dont-email.me>
References: <6cblvjtuqq506j5l5uvvrkvcvj549klff8@4ax.com>
 <vtfhp7$25gv3$1@dont-email.me> <vtipp3$13511$1@dont-email.me>
 <vtka2s$2g8en$3@dont-email.me> <vtme4n$f4pp$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2025 00:27:52 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="4b6aa05a85362c5e05a1d269bc0d4e16";
	logging-data="741054"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX192pHy33dBcI2Ws0v0IpBQy"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
 Thunderbird/102.2.2
Cancel-Lock: sha1:eC6tIDklTDn6l4H65u3BFw1g5tI=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <vtme4n$f4pp$1@dont-email.me>
Bytes: 9650

On 4/15/2025 1:04 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
>> What's "sky high"?  And, are residential and commercial/industrial
>> rates significantly different?
> 
> Yes and in complicated ways. Residential tariffs are capped, ordinary 
> businesses are not but a handful of ultimate heavy use load balancing centres 
> get preferential rates on condition that they can get no electricity at all. 
> Think aluminium and fertiliser plants and choralkali electrolysis. (I think the 
> last aluminium plant in England has now shut)

Is the "cap" significantly higher than the "normal" rate?  Or, is it,
effectively, the "normal rate"?

> Increasingly the winter peak load in the UK is balanced by paying big heavy 
> industrial users to shut down or go to a standby condition! There are even 
> schemes to reward home users not to use power at peak times.

We have had time-of-use (ToU) tariffs, here, for decades.  (I designed a ToU 
KWHr meter more than 35 years ago)  But, they are usually ridiculously
structured.  E.g., it would only make sense for *me* if we could live
entirely without refrigerative cooling (ain't gonna happen for 9 months
out of the year) as the cost of using electricity during peak hours exceeds
by many multiples the cost of non-ToU rates.

There are also "demand" tariffs where the cost of the energy is proportional
to the *peak* rate of YOUR consumption.  So, it pays to be able to do local
load-leveling as any power used at less than your peak rate of consumption
is over-priced.  This is primarily used by businesses and leads to investments
in load-shifting technologies (e.g., making ice, overnite, to ease the
cooling load the next *day* -- as well as allowing the refrigeration units
to be downsized a bit).

There are also cases where the utility is (at your consent) given control
over some of your larger loads (think: central air conditioning) so that
it can manage its total load as well as micromanaging the loads on individual
parts of the distribution network.

And, of course, rates for folks who do cogeneration.  (amusingly, if you
are a cogenerator, you are automatically put on a ToU schedule.  So,
taking your cogeneration capability offline for maintenance means
you pay through the nose for power that your neighbors would get at a
fraction of that cost)

> Typical electricity prices in the UK are tightly coupled to the spot price of 
> natural gas in a totally crazy pricing structure. Electricity in the UK is 2x 
> the price on mainland Europe and 4x that in the US.

We have a surcharge for power generation via "quick response" technologies
(like gas fired plants).  We also pay for the cost of transmission (a
technique that allows the utility to avoid reimbursing cogenerators for
power at the same rate that they would charge to supply it!)

Plus taxes, fees, etc.  And, of course, voluntary donations to subsidize folks
who can't pay their bills...  <rolls eyes>

> It was sort of OK until the war in Ukraine started and Russian gas was 
> plentiful in Europe. We were pretty much screwed from that point because we had 
> almost no long term gas storage capacity with Rough closed down (it was 
> deliberately taken offline to save on maintenance costs).

Good to have politicians who are looking out for your interests in this
regard -- not!

> https://warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents/knowledgecentre/business/business/gas_price_spike/
> 
> The price paid for wholesale electricity in the UK is determined by the cost of 
> generating the most expensive component needed to match demand (so that they 
> can make a profit). This is typically a fast response gas turbine and all 
> suppliers get paid in proportion to that high price.
> 
> https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2025/02/25/its-time-to-change-uk-energy-pricing/

I *think*, here, it depends on the actual cost.  E.g., places with hydropower
likely pay a lower overall rate vs. places totally reliant on burning fossil
carbon.

The utility has been complaining that they have "too much" residential
solar capacity (the utility has a say in whether or not YOU can use solar
and how large your installation can be)

> The whole thing is rigged by Ofgem (the energy regulator) for the benefit of 
> the electricity producers and against their customers.

Well, when was a service ever designed for the (strict) *benefit* of its
consumers?  SWMBO's folks were part of a co-operative for power generation
so she periodically receives *checks* from them.

> At night the spot price for electricity can spike negative so that UK battery 
> farms like to put insanely big substations onto their batteries to game the 
> system (and so get paid handsomely for accepting power). This does nothing for 
> network stability.
> 
>>> The UK has an insane imbalance between production of power in the North and 
>>> consumption of power in London and the South East. The main cables running 
>>> N-S are routinely overloaded during daytime during winter.
>>
>> Why is NEW generation not brought on-line closer to the demand?
> 
> Engineers have been warning about the problem for about 3 decades.
> 
> https://www.theengineer.co.uk/content/in-depth/generation-gap/

Deaf politicians?  Or, consumers unwilling to bear the short-term pain
of bringing that on-line?  (i.e., hoping the shit hits the fan sometime
down the road)

>> Is this a NiMBY issue?  Or, a consequence of real-estate valuations?
> 
> Partly a factor is that land prices are much lower in the north but also it is 
> a lot more windy. A Nimby in the south is worth 10 in the north.

That suggests you are using wind-power, there?

> One option is to install large BESS systems near to the windfarms and also near 
> the major city loads. That way power can be moved overnight to where it will be 
> needed in the daytime. Only snag is that it is way more profitable to build 
> them in the north where land is so much cheaper.

In relative terms, is the real estate THAT much of a portion of the cost?
I would think it would fall out of the equation rather quickly.

Of course, one can argue that the NiMBY folks shouldn't be complaining
about THEIR choice in the matter!

E.g., we have an afluent section of town that has resisted the development
of a higher capacity roadway through their area.  Said road would greatly ease
congestion as it would allow a lot of traffic to skirt the central arteries.
Now, they are suddenly complaining that THEIR travel times are ridiculously
high as more and more land BETWEEN them and the central arteries is developed;
each development meaning more intersections and traffic signals along the
route.  An emergency ride to the nearest hospital is now longer than half
an hour (once the meatwagon is AT their door, loaded and ready to depart!)

Tough call.  Spend the extra time EVERY day (twice!) to keep that traffic
out of your parts of town... and, run the risk of not being able to get
emergency (fire, ambulance) care sooner.

Of course, it's a foregone conclusion that there WILL be new roadways
constructed through those areas and, instead of a couple of lanes, it
will be on the order of 6 or 8 to be "future safe".

ooops!

> UK infrastructure configuration is determined by speculators.

I think that is true in most places.  There are some big projects where
the federal government is involved as the "investment" is far too great
(and far too much red tape) for mere mortals.  E.g., our water supply
travels down a ~300 mile canal built for that express purpose.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Arizona_Project>

Increasingly, *water* supplies are falling into this trap.

>> Or, just a resistance to solving a problem (which then means you can't
>> CLAIM to be the one who WILL solve it -- if elected to do so)?
> 
> UK national infrastructure has been privatised and robbed blind by vulture 
> capitalists since the 1980's. It isn't just electricity that is problematic 
> London's water supply was in dire danger of going bust too.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66051555
> 
> It is ultimately all about very clever financial engineering to load the 
> balance sheet with debt and pay handsome dividends to foreign owners.
> 
> Penny wise and pound foolish for the the UK.

It seems like a change to the tax code could quickly change their fortunes?