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From: Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
Subject: Re: Loops (was Re: do { quit; } else { })
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2025 07:39:11 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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On 15.04.2025 18:42, bart wrote:
> On 15/04/2025 17:22, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> On 15.04.2025 16:30, bart wrote:
>>> On 15/04/2025 14:33, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>> On 2025-04-15, bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
>>>>>     * Not having to write the variable 3 times (with C not always
>>>>> being
>>>>>       able to detect if they didn't match)
>>>>
>>>> This is indeed a source of errors in C nested loops.
>>>
>>> According to Janis Papanagnou, it is 100% the programmer's fault. There
>>> is nothing wrong with the language!
>>
>> No, there is nothing wrong with the language if you make such errors.
>>
>> The programmer selects (or constructs) the algorithm, the language has
>> clear semantics for such simple loop constructs without any irregular
>> or hidden semantics, and the programmer's task is to know the elements
>> of the language and transfer the algorithm to a correct coding. - It's
>> self-delusion if you try to blame the language for the mistakes you do.
> 
> Suppose you have two ways A and B to implement a feature in a language.
> 
> You find that those using A tend to make twice as many mistakes in that
> feature, and have more undetectable bugs, as those who use B.
> 
> Your job is to choose which of A and B to keep.
> 
> Would your decision completely ignore such findings?

We have a couple decisions to make, some factors are often predefined.
The necessary and possible decisions are made on different levels
depending on the role you have in a software project.

If I'd have a choice in the used language I might or might not use "C"
depending on the requirements to fulfill.

To be concrete; it's unlikely that I'll use Algol 68 or "your language"
and it had been the case that we had to use languages like C++ or Java.

If I have a choice in the participating programmers I would certainly
select those programmers that don't program by copy/paste and fail to
create correct code even in trivial cases like 'for' loops.

To be concrete for the factors exposed here; I would not select you for
the programming team; more often than not I see you only complaining
and having issues with understanding of (commonly known) programming
and programming language aspects.

As a pure programmer with a given environment I would use the features
of a language that appears most appropriate. You, OTOH, will obviously
be helpless since you fail even with simple loops in "C" - since that's
what "C" provides as control constructs for loops.

Janis