Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain
Date: Sun, 4 May 2025 16:00:31 +1000
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On 4/05/2025 9:53 am, john larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 3 May 2025 23:55:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On 2025-05-03 17:12, john larkin wrote:
>>> On Sat, 3 May 2025 14:24:07 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2025-05-02 12:03, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>> On 01/05/2025 18:41, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/05/2025 2:21 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 30/04/2025 7:59 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ... pumped hydro storage has the spinning
>>>>>>>>>> turbines, but grid scale batteries have invereters, which can
>>>>>>>>>> reacta lot
>>>>>>>>>> faster than any spinning turbine,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I thought the stabilising effect of a spinning turbine was because it
>>>>>>>>> *didn't* react quickly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The grid frequency begins to fall so energy from the moving parts is
>>>>>>>>> converted to electrical power which is fed into the grid to increase.
>>>>>>>>> the frequency.  This results in a loss of stored mechanical energy
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>> causes the turbine to begin slowing down - which is detected by the
>>>>>>>>> control system and used to feed more water/gas/steam into the
>>>>>>>>> turbine so
>>>>>>>>> its speed is returned to normal.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The interface between the stored mechanical energy and the electrical
>>>>>>>>> energy demand has an almost instant response and is inherently stable
>>>>>>>>> without needing elaborate control algorithms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But it isn't actually doing anything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes it is, basic electrical engineering theory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In effect it is a constant speed generator connected to variable load;
>>>>>>> increase the load and more electrical energy immediately flows into the
>>>>>>> load, taking mechanical energy from the inertia of the moving parts.
>>>>>>> They then begin to slow down and the much more heavily damped mechanical
>>>>>>> regulator feeds in more energy to them from the primary source.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So it is completely passive. A big battery isn't a primary source but
>>>>>> it can provide enough DC current to let your grid scale inverter
>>>>>> generate exactly the AC output that you need.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a surprising amount of kinetic energy that can be stored in a
>>>>> flywheel or other rotating piece of big heavy machinery. The grid has
>>>>> adopted large scale solar PV and wind farms with some very flaky
>>>>> inverter technology whose interractions are not at all well understood.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the internal reports I was reading recently mentioned that they
>>>>> were thinking about funding a PhD to look into some of the complexities.
>>>>> It is pretty clear that the system is not well thought out.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Why futz around with the rotating metal? It may entertain tourists,
>>>>>> but that's really all that it is good for.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because it was always just there and now that it isn't the replacement
>>>>> inverters on many of the big installations are nowhere near good enough
>>>>> at simulating the required behaviour. They are too inclined to drop off
>>>>> and save themselves (much like nuclear plant also does). I suspect that
>>>>> Spain doesn't have a great deal of battery storage or pumped water.
>>>>
>>>> Network grade batteries, none, I believe. There are plans for water
>>>> pump/generators. Some of the islands do have them.
>>>>
>>>> It seems that solar panels and wind farms mostly have the type of
>>>> inverter that follow the shape of the voltage already in the grid, with
>>>> detection to bail out if things go nuts. There is the suspicion that
>>>> this was at least part of the problem.
>>>>
>>>> But there is another type of inverters that force the shape, ie,
>>>> simulate inertia.
>>>
>>> Where do they get the energy from?
>>
>> Where does a gas turbine get the energy from?
> 
> Wait, wait, let me think....

If only you made a habit of it.

> Inertia, and then burning gas?

It was a rhetorical question.

-- 
Bill Sloman, Sydney