Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain
Date: Sun, 4 May 2025 09:49:22 +0100
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On 04/05/2025 01:27, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2025-05-04 01:53, john larkin wrote:
>> On Sat, 3 May 2025 23:55:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2025-05-03 17:12, john larkin wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 3 May 2025 14:24:07 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2025-05-02 12:03, Martin Brown wrote:

>>>>>> Spain doesn't have a great deal of battery storage or pumped water.
>>>>>
>>>>> Network grade batteries, none, I believe. There are plans for water
>>>>> pump/generators. Some of the islands do have them.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems that solar panels and wind farms mostly have the type of
>>>>> inverter that follow the shape of the voltage already in the grid, 
>>>>> with
>>>>> detection to bail out if things go nuts. There is the suspicion that
>>>>> this was at least part of the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> But there is another type of inverters that force the shape, ie,
>>>>> simulate inertia.
>>>>
>>>> Where do they get the energy from?
>>>
>>> Where does a gas turbine get the energy from?
>>
>> Wait, wait, let me think....
>>
>> Inertia, and then burning gas?
>>
> 
> Well, same thing.
> 
> Batteries, and panels and wind flaps.

But you do have to have serious stored energy available at the drop of a 
hat if the inverter is to effectively resist frequency being pulled down 
by the load. It can be done but the engineering will be interesting.

I suspect from the time of day when this happened it was over supply of 
solar PV leading to too high a frequency and/or over voltage events that 
led to the cascade failure. Unclear why it didn't pass through a stable 
state where supply matched demand though if that really was the case.

I suspect poor network stability analysis played a large part and the 
network was still relying on the intrinsic stability of the old turbine 
generators that were no longer present. Have to wait for the report.

ISTR the electricity supplier in Spain has been warning about this for a 
while but the politicians were not listening. I wonder if the Spanish 
government *will* actually publish the results of the investigation.

-- 
Martin Brown