Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Functions computed by Turing Machines MUST apply finite string
 transformations to inputs --- MT
Date: Sun, 4 May 2025 22:58:56 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <vv99hg$3h92p$1@dont-email.me>
References: <TuuNP.2706011$nb1.2053729@fx01.ams4>
 <991dde3a60e1485815b789520c7149e7842d18f2@i2pn2.org>
 <vuti3c$jq57$1@dont-email.me> <vutmr6$nvbg$2@dont-email.me>
 <vutv7r$v5pn$4@dont-email.me> <vuu73m$151a8$3@dont-email.me>
 <vuuej8$1cqp7$1@dont-email.me> <vuur2n$1qe3m$2@dont-email.me>
 <vv0352$2ur4q$1@dont-email.me> <vv0kpi$3djh5$1@dont-email.me>
 <vv13ro$3r3ei$1@dont-email.me> <vv160a$3smj7$1@dont-email.me>
 <vv18s7$3uer0$1@dont-email.me> <vv1b03$4a4k$2@dont-email.me>
 <vv1bav$3ra6l$7@dont-email.me> <vv1frt$97hp$1@dont-email.me>
 <vv1gfu$3ra6l$8@dont-email.me> <vv1js4$d4ik$1@dont-email.me>
 <-GOdnZvgEPn-84j1nZ2dnZfqn_SdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
 <vv5e46$3rtqo$1@dont-email.me>
 <2qydnbbWA6CAGIv1nZ2dnZfqn_SdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
 <87frhjamvt.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <vv93tq$383jd$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 05 May 2025 04:58:56 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="18d110b57402f35c65b5688042d33321";
	logging-data="3712089"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19WQI43q7WtclPlwISvoB88"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:tbIrdOrxWDk5at/P9D6P7EPeRmQ=
In-Reply-To: <vv93tq$383jd$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
Bytes: 4415

On 5/4/2025 9:23 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/4/2025 8:04 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> writes:
>> ...
>>> As explained above, UTM(⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩) simulates Ĥ run with input Ĥ (having 
>>> the
>>> same halting behaviour) and Ĥ run with input Ĥ HALTS.  So embedded_H 
>>> does
>>> not "gather enough information to deduce that UTM(⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩) would never
>>> halt".  THAT IS JUST A FANTASY THAT YOU HAVE.
>>>
>>> UTM(⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩) DOES halt, so embedded_H can't possibly gather information
>>> that genuinely implies it DOESN'T halt.  The explanation is obvious:
>>> embedded_H gathers information that *YOU* believe implies that 
>>> UTM(⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩)
>>> would never halt, but *YOU ARE SIMPLY WRONG*.
>>
>> He used to claim that false ("does not halt") was the correct answer,
>> /even though/ the computation in question halts!  Those were simpler
>> days.  Of course cranks will never admit to having been wrong about
>> anything other than a detail or two, so anyone who could be bothered
>> could try to get him to retract that old claim.
>>
> 
> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
>      If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
>      until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never
>      stop running unless aborted then
> 
>      H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
>      specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
> </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
> 

And you *CONTINUE* to lie by implying that Sipser agrees with you when 
it's been repeated proven that he does not:

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 2:41:27 PM UTC-5, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 > I exchanged emails with him about this. He does not agree with anything
 > substantive that PO has written. I won't quote him, as I don't have
 > permission, but he was, let's say... forthright, in his reply to me.

This demonstrates a reckless disregard for the truth on your part.

> When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
> 
> In other words embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is correct to
> reject its input if
> 
> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* UTM ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* UTM ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
> Would not halt.
> 

In other words, you change the input.

Changing the input is not allowed.