Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Halting Problem: What Constitutes Pathological Input
Date: Wed, 7 May 2025 23:06:10 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 187
Message-ID: <vvglgj$18r3i$1@dont-email.me>
References: <GE4SP.47558$VBab.42930@fx08.ams4> <vvav6o$o4v0$4@dont-email.me>
 <vvb329$15u5b$1@dont-email.me> <vvb37g$1451r$1@dont-email.me>
 <vvb43f$15u5b$4@dont-email.me> <vvb4ok$o4v0$9@dont-email.me>
 <vvb52g$15u5b$6@dont-email.me> <vvb5ca$o4v0$10@dont-email.me>
 <vvb5vp$15u5b$7@dont-email.me> <vvb675$o4v0$11@dont-email.me>
 <vvb9d7$1av94$3@dont-email.me> <vvbani$1b6l1$1@dont-email.me>
 <vvbb6s$1av94$4@dont-email.me> <vvbcb3$1b6l1$2@dont-email.me>
 <vvbe0j$1av94$8@dont-email.me> <vvbecc$1b6l1$6@dont-email.me>
 <vvbhk0$1ijna$1@dont-email.me> <vvc7t9$29pp8$1@dont-email.me>
 <vvc86c$2a4cs$1@dont-email.me> <vvcufi$2sk4a$3@dont-email.me>
 <vvdlff$3i09b$2@dont-email.me> <vvdo96$3lapa$1@dont-email.me>
 <vvdr87$3n3t4$1@dont-email.me> <vve3mf$3vva3$1@dont-email.me>
 <vve4ut$f5c$1@dont-email.me> <vvehuu$g8eg$1@dont-email.me>
 <vvej0u$g8jo$1@dont-email.me> <vvfv4c$13nqj$1@dont-email.me>
 <vvg1id$14bdu$1@dont-email.me> <vvgirs$18j74$1@dont-email.me>
 <vvgjic$18j1i$3@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 08 May 2025 00:06:11 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="69c073830ae6b666c3dcb0619ca095de";
	logging-data="1338482"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/OUJX8+qM9OLEJ8bRDRm7pHU+2bOcOwVc="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
 Firefox/91.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.18.2
Cancel-Lock: sha1:oK3rhznfqTXluE8E6iHS5qSuo+A=
In-Reply-To: <vvgjic$18j1i$3@dont-email.me>

On 07/05/2025 22:32, olcott wrote:
> On 5/7/2025 4:20 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>> On 07/05/2025 17:25, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/7/2025 10:44 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>> On 07/05/2025 04:11, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/6/2025 9:53 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>> On 07/05/2025 00:11, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 5:49 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 06/05/2025 21:25, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 2:35 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 2:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 7:14 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 1:54 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 12:49 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/05/2025 00:29, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is the problem incorrect specification that creates
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the contradiction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not at all. The contradiction arises from the fact that it is not possible to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> construct a universal decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone here insists that functions computed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by models of computation can ignore inputs and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> base their output on something else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think anyone's saying that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you don't read so well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What are the exact steps for DD to be emulated by HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to the semantics of the x86 language?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Only an execution trace will do*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The exact same steps for DD to be emulated by UTM.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _DD()
>>>>>>>>>>> [00002133] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>> [00002134] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>> [00002136] 51         push ecx      ; make space for local
>>>>>>>>>>> [00002137] 6833210000 push 00002133 ; push DD
>>>>>>>>>>> [0000213c] e882f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DD)
>>>>>>>>>>> [00002141] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>> [00002144] 8945fc     mov [ebp-04],eax
>>>>>>>>>>> [00002147] 837dfc00   cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
>>>>>>>>>>> [0000214b] 7402       jz 0000214f
>>>>>>>>>>> [0000214d] ebfe       jmp 0000214d
>>>>>>>>>>> [0000214f] 8b45fc     mov eax,[ebp-04]
>>>>>>>>>>> [00002152] 8be5       mov esp,ebp
>>>>>>>>>>> [00002154] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>> [00002155] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0035) [00002155]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Machine address by machine address specifics
>>>>>>>>>>> that you know that you cannot provide because
>>>>>>>>>>> you know that you are wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> HHH and UTM emulate DD exactly the same up until the point that HHH aborts, 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When you trace through the actual steps you
>>>>>>>>> will see that this is counter-factual.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it is exactly right.  Remember, I posted a comparison of the two traces side by side 
>>>>>>>> some time ago, and they were indeed IDENTICAL line for line up to the point where HHH 
>>>>>>>> decided to discontinue simulating. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is counter-factual.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dude!  :/  I posted the comparison and the traces were the same up to the point where HHH 
>>>>>> discontinued the simulation.  How can it be "counter-factual"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> HHH1(DD) the call from DD to HHH(DD) returns.
>>>>> HHH(DD) the call from DD to HHH(DD) cannot possibly return.
>>>>>
>>>>> A call that returns and a call that cannot possibly
>>>>> return *are not exactly the same thing*
>>>>
>>>> You need to read what posters actually say.  I said the traces were the same up to the point 
>>>> where HHH stops simulating. 
>>>
>>> THAT IS COUNTER-FACTUAL.
>>> HHH continues to emulate DD long after their paths diverge.
>>>
>>> HHH1 only emulates DD once.
>>> HHH emulates DD once and then emulates itself emulating DD.
>>>
>>>>  I didn't say anything about calls that return or do not return "being the same thing" and none 
>>>> of what you relates to whether what I said was correct.
>>>>
>>>> Look, if you insist the traces are not the same up to the point where HHH stops simulating, show 
>>>> the two traces and we'll just look and see! Simples.
>>>>
>>>
>>> HHH1(DD) emulates DD once.
>>> HHH(DD) emulates DD once and then emulates itself emulating DD.
>>>
>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine        assembly
>>>   address   address   data      code           language
>>>   ========  ========  ========  ============== =============
>>> [000021be][00103872][00000000] 55             push ebp
>>> [000021bf][00103872][00000000] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>> [000021c1][0010386e][0000213e] 683e210000     push 0000213e // push DD
>>> [000021c6][0010386a][000021cb] e853f3ffff     call 0000151e // call HHH1
>>> New slave_stack at:103916
>>>
>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:11391e
>>> [0000213e][0011390e][00113912] 55             push ebp
>>> [0000213f][0011390e][00113912] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>> [00002141][0011390a][00103916] 51             push ecx
>>> [00002142][00113906][0000213e] 683e210000     push 0000213e // push DD
>>> [00002147][00113902][0000214c] e8a2f4ffff     call 000015ee // call HHH
>>> New slave_stack at:14e33e
>>>
>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:15e346
>>> [0000213e][0015e336][0015e33a] 55             push ebp
>>> [0000213f][0015e336][0015e33a] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>> [00002141][0015e332][0014e33e] 51             push ecx
>>> [00002142][0015e32e][0000213e] 683e210000     push 0000213e // push DD
>>> [00002147][0015e32a][0000214c] e8a2f4ffff     call 000015ee // call HHH
>>> New slave_stack at:198d66
>>> [0000213e][001a8d5e][001a8d62] 55             push ebp
>>> [0000213f][001a8d5e][001a8d62] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>> [00002141][001a8d5a][00198d66] 51             push ecx
>>> [00002142][001a8d56][0000213e] 683e210000     push 0000213e
>>> [00002147][001a8d52][0000214c] e8a2f4ffff     call 000015ee
>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>>
>>> [0000214c][0011390a][00103916] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>> [0000214f][0011390a][00000000] 8945fc         mov [ebp-04],eax
>>> [00002152][0011390a][00000000] 837dfc00       cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
>>> [00002156][0011390a][00000000] 7402           jz 0000215a
>>> [0000215a][0011390a][00000000] 8b45fc         mov eax,[ebp-04]
>>> [0000215d][0011390e][00113912] 8be5           mov esp,ebp
>>> [0000215f][00113912][000015d3] 5d             pop ebp
>>> [00002160][00113916][0003a980] c3             ret
>>> [000021cb][00103872][00000000] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>> [000021ce][0010386e][00000001] 50             push eax
>>> [000021cf][0010386a][0000075f] 685f070000     push 0000075f
>>> [000021d4][0010386a][0000075f] e8a5e5ffff     call 0000077e
>>> Input_Halts = 1
>>> [000021d9][00103872][00000000] 83c408         add esp,+08
>>> [000021dc][00103872][00000000] 33c0           xor eax,eax
>>> [000021de][00103876][00000018] 5d             pop ebp
>>> [000021df][0010387a][00000000] c3             ret
>>> Number of Instructions Executed(400885) == 5983 Pages
>>
>> Excellent - above we have the trace for HHH1, half of what we need. While we /could/ use that to 
>> /deduce/ what the trace for HHH should be, we shouldn't have to resort to that.  The clean way to 
>> proceed is for you to now post the similar trace for main calling HHH, then we can compare them 
>> with minimal editing...
>>
>> Mike.
>>
>>
> 
> The two calls to HHH(DD) are in the part you ignored.
> 
> HHH1(DD) emulates DD that calls the emulated HHH(DD)
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========