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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Halting Problem: What Constitutes Pathological Input
Date: Wed, 7 May 2025 18:01:31 -0500
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On 5/7/2025 5:06 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
> On 07/05/2025 22:32, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/7/2025 4:20 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>> On 07/05/2025 17:25, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/7/2025 10:44 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>> On 07/05/2025 04:11, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 9:53 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>> On 07/05/2025 00:11, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 5:49 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 06/05/2025 21:25, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 2:35 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 2:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 7:14 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 1:54 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 12:49 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/05/2025 00:29, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is the problem incorrect specification that creates
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the contradiction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not at all. The contradiction arises from the fact that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is not possible to construct a universal decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone here insists that functions computed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by models of computation can ignore inputs and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> base their output on something else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think anyone's saying that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you don't read so well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What are the exact steps for DD to be emulated by HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to the semantics of the x86 language?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Only an execution trace will do*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The exact same steps for DD to be emulated by UTM.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _DD()
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002133] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002134] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002136] 51         push ecx      ; make space for local
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002137] 6833210000 push 00002133 ; push DD
>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000213c] e882f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DD)
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002141] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002144] 8945fc     mov [ebp-04],eax
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002147] 837dfc00   cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000214b] 7402       jz 0000214f
>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000214d] ebfe       jmp 0000214d
>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000214f] 8b45fc     mov eax,[ebp-04]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002152] 8be5       mov esp,ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002154] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002155] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0035) [00002155]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Machine address by machine address specifics
>>>>>>>>>>>> that you know that you cannot provide because
>>>>>>>>>>>> you know that you are wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> HHH and UTM emulate DD exactly the same up until the point 
>>>>>>>>>>> that HHH aborts, 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When you trace through the actual steps you
>>>>>>>>>> will see that this is counter-factual.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it is exactly right.  Remember, I posted a comparison of 
>>>>>>>>> the two traces side by side some time ago, and they were indeed 
>>>>>>>>> IDENTICAL line for line up to the point where HHH decided to 
>>>>>>>>> discontinue simulating. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is counter-factual.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dude!  :/  I posted the comparison and the traces were the same 
>>>>>>> up to the point where HHH discontinued the simulation.  How can 
>>>>>>> it be "counter-factual"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HHH1(DD) the call from DD to HHH(DD) returns.
>>>>>> HHH(DD) the call from DD to HHH(DD) cannot possibly return.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A call that returns and a call that cannot possibly
>>>>>> return *are not exactly the same thing*
>>>>>
>>>>> You need to read what posters actually say.  I said the traces were 
>>>>> the same up to the point where HHH stops simulating. 
>>>>
>>>> THAT IS COUNTER-FACTUAL.
>>>> HHH continues to emulate DD long after their paths diverge.
>>>>
>>>> HHH1 only emulates DD once.
>>>> HHH emulates DD once and then emulates itself emulating DD.
>>>>
>>>>>  I didn't say anything about calls that return or do not return 
>>>>> "being the same thing" and none of what you relates to whether what 
>>>>> I said was correct.
>>>>>
>>>>> Look, if you insist the traces are not the same up to the point 
>>>>> where HHH stops simulating, show the two traces and we'll just look 
>>>>> and see! Simples.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> HHH1(DD) emulates DD once.
>>>> HHH(DD) emulates DD once and then emulates itself emulating DD.
>>>>
>>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine        assembly
>>>>   address   address   data      code           language
>>>>   ========  ========  ========  ============== =============
>>>> [000021be][00103872][00000000] 55             push ebp
>>>> [000021bf][00103872][00000000] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>> [000021c1][0010386e][0000213e] 683e210000     push 0000213e // push DD
>>>> [000021c6][0010386a][000021cb] e853f3ffff     call 0000151e // call 
>>>> HHH1
>>>> New slave_stack at:103916
>>>>
>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:11391e
>>>> [0000213e][0011390e][00113912] 55             push ebp
>>>> [0000213f][0011390e][00113912] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>> [00002141][0011390a][00103916] 51             push ecx
>>>> [00002142][00113906][0000213e] 683e210000     push 0000213e // push DD
>>>> [00002147][00113902][0000214c] e8a2f4ffff     call 000015ee // call HHH
>>>> New slave_stack at:14e33e
>>>>
>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:15e346
>>>> [0000213e][0015e336][0015e33a] 55             push ebp
>>>> [0000213f][0015e336][0015e33a] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>> [00002141][0015e332][0014e33e] 51             push ecx
>>>> [00002142][0015e32e][0000213e] 683e210000     push 0000213e // push DD
>>>> [00002147][0015e32a][0000214c] e8a2f4ffff     call 000015ee // call HHH
>>>> New slave_stack at:198d66
>>>> [0000213e][001a8d5e][001a8d62] 55             push ebp
>>>> [0000213f][001a8d5e][001a8d62] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>> [00002141][001a8d5a][00198d66] 51             push ecx
>>>> [00002142][001a8d56][0000213e] 683e210000     push 0000213e
>>>> [00002147][001a8d52][0000214c] e8a2f4ffff     call 000015ee
>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>>>
>>>> [0000214c][0011390a][00103916] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>>> [0000214f][0011390a][00000000] 8945fc         mov [ebp-04],eax
>>>> [00002152][0011390a][00000000] 837dfc00       cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
>>>> [00002156][0011390a][00000000] 7402           jz 0000215a
>>>> [0000215a][0011390a][00000000] 8b45fc         mov eax,[ebp-04]
>>>> [0000215d][0011390e][00113912] 8be5           mov esp,ebp
>>>> [0000215f][00113912][000015d3] 5d             pop ebp
>>>> [00002160][00113916][0003a980] c3             ret
>>>> [000021cb][00103872][00000000] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>>> [000021ce][0010386e][00000001] 50             push eax
>>>> [000021cf][0010386a][0000075f] 685f070000     push 0000075f
>>>> [000021d4][0010386a][0000075f] e8a5e5ffff     call 0000077e
>>>> Input_Halts = 1
>>>> [000021d9][00103872][00000000] 83c408         add esp,+08
>>>> [000021dc][00103872][00000000] 33c0           xor eax,eax
>>>> [000021de][00103876][00000018] 5d             pop ebp
>>>> [000021df][0010387a][00000000] c3             ret
>>>> Number of Instructions Executed(400885) == 5983 Pages
>>>
>>> Excellent - above we have the trace for HHH1, half of what we need. 
>>> While we /could/ use that to /deduce/ what the trace for HHH should 
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