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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Halting Problem: What Constitutes Pathological Input
Date: Wed, 7 May 2025 21:53:06 -0500
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On 5/7/2025 9:46 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/7/25 12:25 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/7/2025 10:44 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>> On 07/05/2025 04:11, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/6/2025 9:53 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>> On 07/05/2025 00:11, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 5:49 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>> On 06/05/2025 21:25, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 2:35 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 2:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 7:14 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 1:54 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 12:49 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/05/2025 00:29, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is the problem incorrect specification that creates
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the contradiction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not at all. The contradiction arises from the fact that it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not possible to construct a universal decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone here insists that functions computed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by models of computation can ignore inputs and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> base their output on something else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think anyone's saying that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you don't read so well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What are the exact steps for DD to be emulated by HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>> according to the semantics of the x86 language?
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Only an execution trace will do*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The exact same steps for DD to be emulated by UTM.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _DD()
>>>>>>>>>> [00002133] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>> [00002134] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>> [00002136] 51         push ecx      ; make space for local
>>>>>>>>>> [00002137] 6833210000 push 00002133 ; push DD
>>>>>>>>>> [0000213c] e882f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DD)
>>>>>>>>>> [00002141] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>> [00002144] 8945fc     mov [ebp-04],eax
>>>>>>>>>> [00002147] 837dfc00   cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
>>>>>>>>>> [0000214b] 7402       jz 0000214f
>>>>>>>>>> [0000214d] ebfe       jmp 0000214d
>>>>>>>>>> [0000214f] 8b45fc     mov eax,[ebp-04]
>>>>>>>>>> [00002152] 8be5       mov esp,ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [00002154] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [00002155] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0035) [00002155]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Machine address by machine address specifics
>>>>>>>>>> that you know that you cannot provide because
>>>>>>>>>> you know that you are wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> HHH and UTM emulate DD exactly the same up until the point that 
>>>>>>>>> HHH aborts, 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When you trace through the actual steps you
>>>>>>>> will see that this is counter-factual.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it is exactly right.  Remember, I posted a comparison of the 
>>>>>>> two traces side by side some time ago, and they were indeed 
>>>>>>> IDENTICAL line for line up to the point where HHH decided to 
>>>>>>> discontinue simulating. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is counter-factual.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dude!  :/  I posted the comparison and the traces were the same up 
>>>>> to the point where HHH discontinued the simulation.  How can it be 
>>>>> "counter-factual"?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> HHH1(DD) the call from DD to HHH(DD) returns.
>>>> HHH(DD) the call from DD to HHH(DD) cannot possibly return.
>>>>
>>>> A call that returns and a call that cannot possibly
>>>> return *are not exactly the same thing*
>>>
>>> You need to read what posters actually say.  I said the traces were 
>>> the same up to the point where HHH stops simulating. 
>>
>> THAT IS COUNTER-FACTUAL.
>> HHH continues to emulate DD long after their paths diverge.
>>
>> HHH1 only emulates DD once.
>> HHH emulates DD once and then emulates itself emulating DD.
>>
>>>  I didn't say anything about calls that return or do not return 
>>> "being the same thing" and none of what you relates to whether what I 
>>> said was correct.
>>>
>>> Look, if you insist the traces are not the same up to the point where 
>>> HHH stops simulating, show the two traces and we'll just look and 
>>> see! Simples.
>>>
>>
>> HHH1(DD) emulates DD once.
>> HHH(DD) emulates DD once and then emulates itself emulating DD.
>>
>>   machine   stack     stack     machine        assembly
>>   address   address   data      code           language
>>   ========  ========  ========  ============== =============
>> [000021be][00103872][00000000] 55             push ebp
>> [000021bf][00103872][00000000] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>> [000021c1][0010386e][0000213e] 683e210000     push 0000213e // push DD
>> [000021c6][0010386a][000021cb] e853f3ffff     call 0000151e // call HHH1
>> New slave_stack at:103916
> 
> 
> **ERROR**
> 
> Not a correct Emulaton of the call instruction,
> 
> You are just PROVING that you are nothing but a totally ignorant 
> pathological lying idiot that doesn't understand what they are talking 
> about.
> 
>>
>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:11391e
>> [0000213e][0011390e][00113912] 55             push ebp
>> [0000213f][0011390e][00113912] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>> [00002141][0011390a][00103916] 51             push ecx
>> [00002142][00113906][0000213e] 683e210000     push 0000213e // push DD
>> [00002147][00113902][0000214c] e8a2f4ffff     call 000015ee // call HHH
>> New slave_stack at:14e33e
>>
>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:15e346
>> [0000213e][0015e336][0015e33a] 55             push ebp
>> [0000213f][0015e336][0015e33a] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>> [00002141][0015e332][0014e33e] 51             push ecx
>> [00002142][0015e32e][0000213e] 683e210000     push 0000213e // push DD
>> [00002147][0015e32a][0000214c] e8a2f4ffff     call 000015ee // call HHH
>> New slave_stack at:198d66
>> [0000213e][001a8d5e][001a8d62] 55             push ebp
>> [0000213f][001a8d5e][001a8d62] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>> [00002141][001a8d5a][00198d66] 51             push ecx
>> [00002142][001a8d56][0000213e] 683e210000     push 0000213e
>> [00002147][001a8d52][0000214c] e8a2f4ffff     call 000015ee
>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>
>> [0000214c][0011390a][00103916] 83c404         add esp,+04
>> [0000214f][0011390a][00000000] 8945fc         mov [ebp-04],eax
>> [00002152][0011390a][00000000] 837dfc00       cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
>> [00002156][0011390a][00000000] 7402           jz 0000215a
>> [0000215a][0011390a][00000000] 8b45fc         mov eax,[ebp-04]
>> [0000215d][0011390e][00113912] 8be5           mov esp,ebp
>> [0000215f][00113912][000015d3] 5d             pop ebp
>> [00002160][00113916][0003a980] c3             ret
>> [000021cb][00103872][00000000] 83c404         add esp,+04
>> [000021ce][0010386e][00000001] 50             push eax
>> [000021cf][0010386a][0000075f] 685f070000     push 0000075f
>> [000021d4][0010386a][0000075f] e8a5e5ffff     call 0000077e
>> Input_Halts = 1
>> [000021d9][00103872][00000000] 83c408         add esp,+08
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