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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Incorrect requirements --- Computing the mapping from the input
 to HHH(DD)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2025 18:48:07 -0500
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On 5/8/2025 6:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/8/25 1:00 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/8/2025 11:14 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>> On 08/05/2025 06:33, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>> On 08/05/2025 06:22, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/7/2025 11:09 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>> On 08/05/2025 02:20, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does there exist an HHH such that DDD emulated by
>>>>>>> HHH according to the rules of the C programming language
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's take a look.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The file is 1373 lines long, but don't worry, because I plan to 
>>>>>> stop at HHH's first departure from the rules of the C programming 
>>>>>> language (or at least the first departure I spot).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Turn in your songbook if you will to:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> void CopyMachineCode(u8* source, u8** destination)
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>    u32 size;
>>>>>>    for (size = 0; source[size] != 0xcc; size++)
>>>>>>      ;
>>>>>>    *destination = (u8*) Allocate(size);
>>>>>>    for (u32 N = 0; N < size; N++)
>>>>>>    {
>>>>>>      Output("source[N]: ", source[N]);
>>>>>>      *destination[N] = source[N];
>>>>>>    }
>>>>>>    ((u32*)*destination)[-1] = size;
>>>>>>    Output("CopyMachineCode destination[-1]: ", 
>>>>>> ((u32*)*destination) [-1]);
>>>>>>    Output("CopyMachineCode destination[-2]: ", 
>>>>>> ((u32*)*destination) [-2]);
>>>>>> };
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> deprecated.
>>>>
>>>> It's not just deprecated. It's hopelessly broken.
>>>>
>>>> Everybody makes mistakes, and one slip would be all very well, but 
>>>> you make essentially the same mistake --- writing to memory that 
>>>> your program doesn't own --- no fewer than four times in a single 
>>>> function.
>>>>
>>>>>> I'll ignore the syntax error (a null statement at file scope is a 
>>>>>> rookie error).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Instead, let's jump straight to this line:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    *destination = (u8*) Allocate(size);
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On line 79 of my copy of the code, we find:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> u32* Allocate(u32 size) { return 0; }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In C, 0 is a null pointer constant, so Allocate returns a null 
>>>>>> pointer constant... which is fine as long as you don't try to 
>>>>>> deref it. So now *destination is NULL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We go on:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    for (u32 N = 0; N < size; N++)
>>>>>>    {
>>>>>>      Output("source[N]: ", source[N]);
>>>>>>      *destination[N] = source[N];
>>>>>>    }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *destination[N] is our first big problem (we're ignoring syntax 
>>>>>> errors, remember). destination is a null pointer, so 
>>>>>> destination[N] derefs a null pointer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's a fail. 0/10, D-, go away and write it again. And you / 
>>>>>> dare/ to impugn other people's C knowledge! Crack a book, for 
>>>>>> pity's sake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you can't even understand what is essentially
>>>>> an infinite recursive relationship between two functions
>>>>> except that one function can terminate the other then
>>>>> you don't have a clue about the essence of my system.
>>>>
>>>> If you can't even understand why it's a stupendously bad idea to 
>>>> dereference a null pointer, you have no business trying to teach 
>>>> anyone anything about C.
>>>>
>>>> Your code is the work of a programmer so hideously incompetent that 
>>>> 'programmer' is scarcely a fair word to use.
>>>>
>>>> When you publish code like that, to even *think* about denigrating 
>>>> other people's C knowledge is the height of arrogant hypocrisy.
>>>>
>>> One problem here is that you don't understand how PO's code works. 
>>> That's to be expected, and PO's response ought to be to explain it so 
>>> that you understand.  Instead he goes off on one of his rants, so 
>>> blamewise it's really down to PO.
>>>
>>> PO's halt7.c is compiled (it is not linked), then the obj file is fed 
>>> as input to his x87utm.exe which is a kind of x86 obj code execution 
>>> environment.  x87utm provides a number of primative calls that 
>>> halt7.c code can make, such as Allocate(), used to allocate a block 
>>> of memory for use in halt7.c.  Within halt7.c code calls an 
>>> Allocate() function, and x86utm intercepts that and performs the 
>>> function internally, then jumps the calling code in halt7.c over the 
>>> Allocate call where it continues as normal.  The call never goes to 
>>> the implementation of Allocate in halt7.c, so the null pointer 
>>> dereferencing does not actually occur.  There are a whole bunch of 
>>> similar x86utm primitive operations that work in the same way.
>>>
>>> PO should have said all that, not me, but it seems he's not 
>>> interested in genuine communication.
>>>
>>> Mike.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for those details, they are correct.
>> I try to stay focused on the key essence gist
>> of the issue and never delve down into the weeds.
>>
>> int DD()
>> {
>>    int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
>>    if (Halt_Status)
>>      HERE: goto HERE;
>>    return Halt_Status;
>> }
>>
>> The key gist of the issue (no weeds involved)
>> is that HHH emulated DD according to the rules
>> of the x86 language
> 
> Excpet, as you have admitted, your DD isn't a program (just a C 
> funciton), and thus not a proper input for a halt decider, which by 
> definiton must be a program.
> 
> Your C function can't be a program, as you have specifically said that 
> the function, and only the funciton is the input, and programs must 
> include in them all their code, so since the code of HHH isn't included 
> in DD or the input representing it, it isn't a program, and thus not a 
> proper input
> 
>>
>> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
>>      *until H correctly determines that*
>>      *its simulated D would never stop running unless aborted*
>> </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
>>
> 
> But that statement implies, as required that H be a halt decider and D 
> to be a proper input to one, neither of which are satisfied, as you have 
> admitte
> 
>> When HHH(DD) computes the actual mapping from
>> its actual input to the actual behavior this
>> it specifies it must be according to the rules
>> of the x86 language.
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