Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Incorrect requirements --- Computing the mapping from the input
 to HHH(DD)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 17:00:19 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 200
Message-ID: <vvr6lj$lieg$1@dont-email.me>
References: <vv97ft$3fg66$1@dont-email.me>
 <b503e969e23dd1b2a6201ba78c82c9ff7906eaae.camel@gmail.com>
 <vvo9e8$3m1oc$3@dont-email.me>
 <b9cec56c1d257e09fdf8043f02f123a4243de6e1.camel@gmail.com>
 <vvoife$3ofmu$1@dont-email.me>
 <09cea75db07408dc9203aca3fb74408ad3a095b4.camel@gmail.com>
 <vvoubl$3qtsi$1@dont-email.me>
 <bc4fb153ff914177dba706ce6e0dfb467e2126eb.camel@gmail.com>
 <vvp04i$3r5li$3@dont-email.me>
 <853816e160c7b3fe75c71f0728e72989d9fb2e41.camel@gmail.com>
 <vvp1fm$3r5li$4@dont-email.me>
 <b049926b61baa5d69d11655a8af06e537b7acd71.camel@gmail.com>
 <vvqga9$gldn$3@dont-email.me>
 <41e08841caf0d628beb5105bc78531a412eea440.camel@gmail.com>
 <vvql3p$gldn$15@dont-email.me>
 <cb999b6746607a1445c196e485a2c1124eaee8b5.camel@gmail.com>
 <vvqnev$i5d0$3@dont-email.me>
 <07c4f2302645a7e58957b5e5bffed80397a6ddae.camel@gmail.com>
 <vvr0ot$k9nu$1@dont-email.me>
 <04bd32e2a5572305de0376f9569172932ffb252f.camel@gmail.com>
 <vvr2ov$khl4$2@dont-email.me>
 <72f8c8295d3a0ff265a67b0de838516ade16c6d5.camel@gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 00:00:20 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="15cac720ddbb61c7f6586fe023932af8";
	logging-data="707024"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19+rbgUO2ILXIDf2AUkVsqK"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:csT5eHZoE8H/61yXR8oQBvBDF4Q=
In-Reply-To: <72f8c8295d3a0ff265a67b0de838516ade16c6d5.camel@gmail.com>
X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250511-4, 5/11/2025), Outbound message
Content-Language: en-US
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean

On 5/11/2025 4:48 PM, wij wrote:
> On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 15:53 -0500, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/11/2025 3:23 PM, wij wrote:
>>> On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 15:19 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/11/2025 1:38 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 12:40 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/11/2025 12:21 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 12:00 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2025 11:28 AM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 10:38 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2025 9:34 AM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 21:19 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2025 9:09 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 20:56 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2025 8:44 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 20:26 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2025 8:17 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 17:03 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2025 4:44 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 14:29 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2025 2:02 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't know the counter example in the HP proof, your D is not the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what HP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> says.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure I do this is it! (as correctly encoded in C)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> typedef void (*ptr)();
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int HHH(ptr P);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int DD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>            int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>            if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>              HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>            return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>            HHH(DD);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Try to convert it to TM language to know you know nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I spent 22 years on this. I started with the Linz text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ copies its input ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ invokes embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) embedded_H simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly simulated by embedded_H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly reach its simulated final halt state
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To refute the HP, you need to understand what it exactly means in TM.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have known this for 22 years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A working TM. Build it explicitly from transition function, then explain
>>>>>>>>>>>>> your derivation. You know nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be like examining how an operating system
>>>>>>>>>>>> works entirely from its machine code.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You are refuting a CS foundamental theorem (i.e. HP) officially.
>>>>>>>>>>> So, yes, and actually MORE need to be done (beyond your imagination).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Knowing a car or smart phone,... is far different from making one.
>>>>>>>>>>> Knowing E=mc^2 is far from knowing relativity, making A-bomb (actually, making
>>>>>>>>>>> A-bomb don't need to know E=mc^2, people are often fooled by popular saying)
>>>>>>>>>>>        
>>>>>>>>>>> Every chapter of Linz's book, C text textbook has exercises, you need to those
>>>>>>>>>>> exercises AT LEAST to comment CS (and computation theory is more advanced topic
>>>>>>>>>>> than TM). Saying so is because we know you can't do the exercise and boast lots
>>>>>>>>>>> about TM stuff (and pretty much anything else from just reading words), even
>>>>>>>>>>> about theorem.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
>>>>>>>>>>         or
>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ copies its input ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ invokes embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>> (c) embedded_H simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All that I need to know is that I proved that
>>>>>>>>>> embedded_H correctly recognizes the repeating
>>>>>>>>>> pattern where its correctly simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly reach its own simulated final
>>>>>>>>>> halt state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.liarparadox.org/Linz_Proof.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We only have to actually know one detail:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Every counter-example input encoded in any model
>>>>>>>>>>>> of computation always specifies recursive simulation
>>>>>>>>>>>> that never halts to its corresponding simulating
>>>>>>>>>>>> termination analyzer.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> More example here that you don't understand nearly all CS terms.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mere empty rhetoric entirely bereft of any supporting
>>>>>>>>>> reasoning. The x86 language is comparable to a RASP
>>>>>>>>>> machine that is equivalent to a Turing machine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Question:
>>>>>>>>> 1. Do you understand that you can't do the exercises in Linz's book?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Everything is 100% irrelevant besides the fact that
>>>>>>>> I have shown that ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly simulated by
>>>>>>>> embedded_H cannot possibly reach its own simulated
>>>>>>>> final halt state ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩. Thus when embedded_H reports
>>>>>>>> on the behavior that its input specifies it can
>>>>>>>> correctly transition to Ĥ.qn.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Do you understand your ability of C/assembly/TM is less than 1 year CS level?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I construe C as high level assembly language thus
>>>>>>>> disregard any inessentials. No change since K & R
>>>>>>>> is of any use to me. I write C++ the same way. I
>>>>>>>> use it as C with classes. I also use std::vector a lot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Q3. If people know the capability of the author of POOH is less than 1 year CS
>>>>>>>         level. How persuasive and reliable of POOH do you think it would be?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Q4: Why no one can reproduce the result of POOH for these 22? years?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========