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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Incorrect requirements --- Computing the mapping from the input
 to HHH(DD)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 22:36:56 -0500
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On 5/11/2025 10:03 PM, dbush wrote:
> On 5/11/2025 11:00 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/11/2025 9:57 PM, dbush wrote:
>>> On 5/11/2025 10:56 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/11/2025 9:49 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>> On 5/11/2025 10:46 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/11/2025 9:38 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/11/2025 10:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2025 9:28 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2025 10:14 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2025 8:59 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2025 9:56 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2025 8:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/25 8:48 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2025 7:38 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/05/2025 18:11, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/05/2025 17:44, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any yes/no question where both yes and no are the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong answer is an incorrect polar question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Either DD stops or it doesn't (once it's been hacked 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around to get it to compile and after we've leeched out 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the dodgy programming).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Done that.  It still stops.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the computer cannot correctly decide whether or not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD halts, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The decider says it doesn't stop..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we have an undecidable computation, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No no, that doesn't make sense.  DD stops, and there are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lots of partial halt deciders that will decide that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particular input correctly.  PO's DD isn't "undecidable".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No single computation can be undecidable, considered on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its own! There are only two possibilities: it halts or it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't. In either case there is a decider which decides 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that /one specific input/ correctly. By extension, any 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite number of computations is decidable - we just have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a giant switch statement followed by returning halts/ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> neverhalts as appropriate.  If the input domain has just 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n inputs, there are 2^n trivial deciders that together 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cater for every combination of each input halting or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never halting.  One of those deciders is a correct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decider for that (finite domain) problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The HP is asking for a TM (or equiv.) that correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decides EVERY (P,I) in its one finite algorithm.  That is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what is proven impossible.  The trick of having a big 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch statement no longer works because there are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinitely many possible inputs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Decidability for just one single input is trivial and not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intersting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and therefore some computations are undecidable, so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Turing's conclusion was right. Who knew? (Apart from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practically everybody else, I mean.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH according to the rules of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the computational language that DD is encoded
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within already proves that the HP "impossible"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input specifies a non-halting sequence of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> configurations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it doesn't.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Show all the steps of DDD emulated by simulating
>>>>>>>>>>>> termination analyzer HHH according to the rules
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the x86 language
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Which it doesn't do as you have admitted on the record:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am daring you to show what they should be.
>>>>>>>>>> You know you can't because you know you are a liar.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Category error.  Algorithm HHH does one thing and one thing 
>>>>>>>>> only. There is no "what it should be" because it *is* only one 
>>>>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Show the exact sequence of machine address steps of DDD
>>>>>>>> such that the DDD emulated by some HHH 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Changing the input is not allowed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no change of input you are a liar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you change function HHH, you no longer have algorithm DDD, which 
>>>>> means you're changing the input.
>>>>>
>>>>> Changing the input is not allowed.
>>>>
>>>> I am talking about every element of an infinite set
>>>> you nitwit.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And in doing so you're changing the input.
>>>
>>> Changing the input is not allowed.
>>
>> OVER YOUR HEAD.
>> All X are Y proves that some X are Y.
>> That some X are Y proves that at least one X is Y.
>>
>>
> 
> OVER YOUR HEAD.
> 
> Halt deciders / termination analyzers are required to map the halting 
> function:
> 

You try to get away with changing the subject
because you know that you are lying about one
or more steps of DDD emulated by HHH according
to the rules of the x86 language reaching its
"ret" instruction simulated final halt state.

_DDD()
[00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
[00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
[00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
[0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
[0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
[00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
[00002183] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer