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From: Tom Elam <thomas.e.elam@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YA bored Tommy Troll Thread (was ...)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 10:20:51 -0400
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On 5/11/2025 7:36 AM, -hh wrote:
> On 5/9/25 14:52, Tom Elam wrote:
>> On 4/30/2025 3:26 PM, -hh wrote:
>>> On 4/16/25 11:17, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>> On 4/2/2025 3:33 PM, -hh wrote:
>>>>> On 4/1/25 18:15, Tom Elam wrote:
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hugh, there are bills like income taxes, property taxes and our 
>>>>>> electric bill that we pay with direct debit rather than a credit 
>>>>>> card. Why? The credit card service fees exceed the 2% cash back on 
>>>>>> my card. I always watch for those fees, but have not ever see a 10%. 
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't believe that I've seen 10% before either, but now I have.
>>>>>
>>>>>> However, a travel agency we use charges 5%. I send a check. 
>>>>>
>>>>> Merely an illustration of attention to detail for each vendor.  As 
>>>>> I've mentioned before, a goodly number of my local small merchants 
>>>>> do have "cash discounts" (eg, CC surcharges) and they're greater 
>>>>> than 2%.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course for travel, there's also a risk trade-off here, as using 
>>>>> a credit card offers some additional protections vs cash.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> During 2024 ...
>>>>>
>>>>> That's really your business.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -hh
>>>>
>>>> I never said that a credit card is ALWAYS the way to go. 
>>>
>>>
>>> Its what you implied when you said that you've never seen merchant 
>>> signs for CC surcharges/Cash discounts ... and that's a claim that 
>>> you repeat once again below:
>>>
>>>> There are many exceptions, and I cited some. However, for day-to-day 
>>>> payments my 2% card is the way to go, as is my 5%-back Target DEBIT 
>>>> card. Exceptions include paying taxes. I use direct debit for IRS 
>>>> and Indiana Dept. of Revenue for estimated taxes. Same for property 
>>>> taxes. No fee for these using direct debit, 3% or more for a credit 
>>>> card. Same for my utility bills.
>>>>
>>>> As for our small local businesses I do not think I have ever seen a 
>>>> sign for cash discount. Certainly not at chain stores.
>>>
>>> See?
>>>
>>>
>>>> All that said, last year we earned about $1,500 on our 2% credit 
>>>> (and 5% at Target) rebate cards. I drove my Accord 15,600 miles on 
>>>> $1,070 of fuel (I have a Google Drive spreadsheet.) Our total 
>>>> gasoline cost was $1,660 (Quicken). So the rebates almost paid for 
>>>> our auto fuel.
>>>>
>>>> The $1,500 in rebates is about $30,000 in spending. Total spend was 
>>>> $185,000 give or take. 
>>>
>>> Whereas the trip we've just returned from had a $954 savings from 
>>> just from our accommodations being cash instead of CC, and is this 
>>> year's example of the potential from just offering the cash alternative.
>>>
>>>> There were big chunks that were a credit card was not the best
>>>> way to pay, or the vendor required a check. Almost nothing was
>>>> cash. Well, the neighborhood cat sitter was about $1,000 because 
>>>> were were gone so much, was all cash.
>>>>
>>>> Cash for international travel is not advisable in most countries. It 
>>>> does come in handy for tips, taxi fares, etc. For most expenses I 
>>>> use credit cards not for the rebate but for fraud protection. If I 
>>>> need cash there is usually a bank ATM available.
>>>
>>> The use of credit has been on a big upswing.  We've been doing that 
>>> too, although we still like having 'starting cash' in small 
>>> denominations (& coins) for international destinations for small 
>>> incidentals...plus to use where credit card theft is a concern.
>>>
>>> Likewise, there can be ATMs as an option as well - if there is one on 
>>> the island (and its not out of service)!  These are considerations 
>>> which aren't really germane to saving money from CC "cash back" 
>>> features.
>>>
>>> -hh
>>
>> Wow, $954 for cash instead of credit card? At 3.5% expense to that 
>> provider that's a ~$27,000 expense. I'm guessing that the discount was 
>> a lot more than 3.5%. So why, if that is the case? Where is the 
>> accommodation provider saving more than credit card expense? Taxes? An 
>> exchange rate scam? My curious mind wants to know.
> 
> Yes, more than your 3.5% guess.  And no, its not any sort of exchange 
> rate scam/tax evasion/etc: we're just a good repeat customer, so we got 
> a quite favorable rate.
> 
>> We are on the way home from Zygreb tomorrow. It's been 2 weeks in 
>> Italy and Croatia. My travel company is a sold proprietor LLC and 
>> takes checks only. So unlike cash there are traceable records. He is 
>> reputable, and certainly offers no discount for actual cash.
> 
> Oh, I have a receipts too, so there's traceable records in case I had to 
> file some sort of travel insurance claim/etc.  Checking the rental car's 
> receipt, it shows a -5% cash discount.
> 
>> This trip did not include airfare, and airlines do not offer cash 
>> discounts. About 2/3 of the meal expense, all hotels, bus transport 
>> and numerous included attraction admissions were included in the 
>> package. One meal was quite memorable. Eight courses at a Michelin 
>> Star restaurant at the 5 star hotel where we spent 5 nights.
> 
> One obtains trip memories in different ways; for this year, it was that 
> the weather enabled multiple 'green flash' sunsets which we enjoyed.
> 
> OTOH, I also had a crew mishandle & drop my UW camera which caused some 
> fairly significant damage...roughly 10% of its original price plus a day 
> at home to do the repairs.  Could have been worse, but the WA lens I use 
> is presently on a clearance discount ($400 discount).
> 
> Looking forward, a trip later this year requires formal wear.  My old 
> tuxedo is long gone, so I need to check my "good enough for Europe" 
> black business suit and may need to be replaced for the trip.
> 
> 
>> For the rest I took a few hundred Euro out of bank ATMs and put some 
>> on my credit cards. Nobody had a cash discount offered, and I did not 
>> ask. One small purchase on a family farm operation was made with 
>> PayPal using 0 fee friends and family terms because I ran low on cash 
>> and they did not take cards.
> 
> Its quite easy to overlook cc surcharges at small businesses, such as 
> for a lunch; locally, I'm finding 3% to be common, although some with 
> website ordering systems are adding a $1 "convenience fee" now too.
> 
> For ATMs, used them twice on the aforementioned trip; US$3 surcharge 
> isn't bad, considering that it was at the favored exchange rate.  Did 
> come back a bit heavy on that currency, but we know we'll be going back, 
> so its not a big deal to hold onto it.
> 
> 
>> One meal was at a motorway Croatia McDonald's. New and very modern, it 
>> was VERY different from the U.S. Totally different menu, extensive 
>> coffee/tea bar, and quite a dessert selection.
>>
>> This is Europe after all. Pretty sophisticated.
> 
> Yes, they've become quite nice and are quite different.  I ended my 
> personal snob 'boycott' of overseas McD's some time ago; most recent 
> visit was in Tokyo...found eggs on top of many burgers.  I think the 
> time before that was the same café style in a rest stop near Bratislava.
> 
> 
>> Ever been to Croatia? My first trip, and the country is stunning.
> 
> Not yet; heard good things about it from a friend that's been there 
> several times .. their main complaint had been that its been overrun 
> with Russians, but that might have been dated by pre-2022 visits, as 
> they've also commented that there's fewer Russians now in Czechia.
> 
> 
> -hh
> 

I was not referring to your side of the $954 cash discount. I was 
referring to the merchant side. Why would a rational merchant give up 
that much for a 3.5-4% credit card fee?

The only place I see service charges for credit card use here in Carmel 
are for tax payments - Federal, State and local Property taxes. I do see 
such at some such gas stations, but only 1-2% for fuel only.

We did not hear any Russian speakers in Croatia. The two conferences at 
our hotel while we were there were EU based. Siemens management and a 
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