Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly
 met
Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 21:46:33 -0500
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In-Reply-To: <vvu5j3$1c062$7@dont-email.me>

On 5/12/2025 8:00 PM, dbush wrote:
> On 5/12/2025 8:56 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/12/2025 7:36 PM, dbush wrote:
>>> On 5/12/2025 8:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/12/2025 7:27 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>> On 5/12/2025 8:25 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 7:12 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 7:53 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Simulating Termination analyzers cannot possibly report
>>>>>>>> on the actual behavior of non-terminating inputs
>>>>>>>> because this would cause themselves to never terminate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They must always hypothesize what the behavior of the
>>>>>>>> input would be if they themselves never aborted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> False.  They must always hypothesize what the behavior of 
>>>>>>> algorithm described by the input would be if it was executed 
>>>>>>> directly, as per the requirements:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Show the actual reasoning of how it makes sense
>>>>>> that a simulating termination analyzer should
>>>>>> ignore the behavior (to its own peril) that the
>>>>>> input actually specifies.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no requirement that building a termination analyzer, 
>>>>> simulating or otherwise, is possible.  In fact, it has proved to 
>>>>> not be possible by Linz and others, which you have *explicitly* 
>>>>> agreed with.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In other words you have no such actual reasoning.
>>>
>>> The reasoning is that there is no requirement that building a 
>>> termination analyzer is possible. 
>>
>> So you have no actual reasoning that addresses my
>> actual point.
>>
>>  >>>> Show the actual reasoning of how it makes sense
>>  >>>> that a simulating termination analyzer should
>>  >>>> ignore the behavior (to its own peril) that the
>>  >>>> input actually specifies.
>>
> 
> It makes sense because that's what's required to tell me if any 
> arbitrary algorithm X with input Y will halt when executed directly.
> 

A simulating termination analyzer(STA) reports on
the behavior of the direct execution of the
algorithm specified by its input except in the
case where the input calls this STA to try to fool it.

What you are proposing would cause HHH to get stuck
in infinite execution. How is getting stuck in
infinite execution better than not getting stuck?


-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer