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From: Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information.
Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 02:14:39 +1000
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On 13/05/2025 11:48 pm, john larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 13 May 2025 12:57:47 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On 2025-05-13 06:25, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2025 3:35 am, john larkin wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 11 May 2025 12:22:11 +1000, Chris Jones
>>>> <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/05/2025 5:04 am, john larkin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As solar and wind get to be dominant, micromanagement of power sources
>>>>>> and loads will be necessary to ensure uptime.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is largely unnecessary - if the control signal that was being sent
>>>>> out by the central controller to micromanage each power source was
>>>>> derived from a function of the frequency, phase, voltage etc., then
>>>>> rather than trying to distribute the result of this calculation to
>>>>> millions of devices with low latency, it is better to distribute just
>>>>> the formula (once every few years or as necessary), and run it on a
>>>>> microcontroller in the inverters several times every mains cycle. They
>>>>> already have more than enough processing power.
>>>>
>>>> A central (international!) controller would want to know what every
>>>> contributor was pushing into the grid, and probably see wind flow and
>>>> clouds moving around. One local transmission line could fail and take
>>>> down half of Europe. Again.
>>>
>>> What makes you think that?
>>> The current control system clearly isn't that well informed, and it
>>> works pretty much all the time.
>>>
>>>>> I believe that there are some new regulatuions in at least one
>>>>> Australian
>>>>> state, driven by the (fossil-fuel-stoked) fear of "too much solar
>>>>> destabilising the grid", which require new home solar inverters to stop
>>>>> exporting power, unless they receive continuous "permission to export"
>>>>> signals from our overlords, the network operators. In other words,
>>>>> rather than exporting power in the case of communications failure, it
>>>>> goes into the state of "export no power" in case of communications
>>>>> failure, because otherwise people might unplug their internet to export
>>>>> more scary solar power if exporting power was allowed when the internet
>>>>> connection fails.
>>>
>>> This is nonsense. The Australian grid don't like having to deal with
>>> excess power being exported by roof-top solar installation, and
>>> discourage people from doing it, to the point where 40% of new roof-top
>>> solar installations in Australia include a Tesla Powerwall or an
>>> equivalent battery, and don't export anything.
>>>
>>>>> This is a fairly new requirement, so not many
>>>>> compliant devices are installed now, but once a few gigawatts of these
>>>>> inverters are running, it will be interesting to see what happens when
>>>>> there is a major internet outage on a hot summer day, and all of those
>>>>> gigawatts suddenly go away. Hopefully they thought of that but I
>>>>> doubt it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The rapid control algorithms should be distributed, and the only
>>>>> low-latency communication signals they should rely upon are frequency
>>>>> and voltage.
>>>>
>>>> A solar panel with an algorithm can't know about potential system
>>>> overloads. Solar and wind will have to be shed sometimes to protect
>>>> the entire system. Loads shed too. Renewable-heavy grids are fragile.
>>>
>>> The existing system doesn't know about potential system overloads, and
>>> it works pretty much all the time. Regular grids are fragile too.
>>>
>>> The renewable-heavy grid in South Australia was fragile, until they
>>> bought the world first grid scale battery in 2017.
>>>
>>> https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/
>>>
>>> They promptly devoted half the battery to short term phase correction
>>> and frequency satabilisation, and it isn't fragile any more.
>>>
>>> Carlos says that the Spanish mainland grid hasn't got any storage - no
>>> grid battery and no pumped hydro, which is a bit silly.
>>
>> No, no grid batteries yet. Pumped hydro there is somewhere; some island
>> have it for sure, it has gone an entire month on renewables alone.
>>
>> I asked chatgpt:
>>
>>               Does the Spanish electricity network has storage capability?
>>
>> Yes, the Spanish electricity network does have storage capabilities, but
>> on a limited scale relative to its overall electricity demand and
>> production.
>>
>>
>> *Key Points:*
>>
>> 1. Pumped Hydro Storage
>>
>> This is the main form of energy storage in Spain. It's a mature and
>> widely used technology that involves pumping water uphill to a reservoir
>> during times of low electricity demand and releasing it to generate
>> electricity during peak demand.
>>
>>      Spain has several pumped hydro plants, including:
>>
>>          La Muela II (one of the largest in Europe)
>>
>>          Estany Gento-Sallente
>>
>>      Total pumped hydro storage capacity in Spain is estimated to be
>> around 6 GW (gigawatts) of installed capacity.
>>
>> 2. Battery Storage
>>
>>      Grid-scale battery storage is still in early development in Spain
>> but is growing.
>>
>>      Projects have been announced or launched, particularly to
>> complement renewable energy (especially solar and wind).
>>
>>      As of recent years, installed battery capacity is relatively small
>> (in the tens to hundreds of megawatts), but it's expected to grow
>> significantly under Spain’s energy transition plans.
>>
>> 3. Other Technologies
>>
>>      Thermal storage: Used in concentrated solar power (CSP) plants,
>> where molten salts store heat that can be used to generate electricity
>> after the sun goes down.
>>
>>      Hydrogen: In development, with pilot projects aiming to use green
>> hydrogen for seasonal or long-duration storage.
>>
>> 4. Future Plans
>>
>> Spain's National Energy and Climate Plan (NECP) and other strategic
>> documents aim to:
>>
>>      Expand storage to around 20 GW by 2030, including batteries, pumped
>> hydro, and other technologies.
>>
>>      Enable better integration of intermittent renewables like wind and
>> solar.
>>
>> Conclusion:
>>
>> Yes, Spain's electricity network has storage capabilities, primarily
>> through pumped hydro, with growing use of batteries and thermal storage.
>> Significant expansion is planned to support the country's renewable
>> energy targets and grid stability.
> 
> Renewable and stable conflict. Both are expensive.

Renewable sources of electricity are the cheapest available.
Solar cells only work when the sun is shining, but it does that for a 
fairly predictable part of the day, and wind farms only work when the 
wind is blowing. but the long term average is pretty stable. You've got 
to manage the short term gaps, but with a bit of excess capacity people 
do seem top get by.

> Pumped hydro is 70 to 80% efficient, but can't be located just
> anywhere, so add transmission line losses. And there's a limit to how
> much can be built.
> 
> Thermal storage is usually less efficient.
> 
> Batteries are big and expensive and often dangerous. Backing up a
> country for a week is basically impossible.

Properly designed battery systems aren't dangerous. Grid scale batteries 
don't blow and burn like cheap e-bike batteries, even if the Murdoch 
press likes to create that impression.
> Nukes are great, but not if you tear them down.

Nukes are remarkably expensive, and depressingly inflexible. Radiation 
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