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From: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Pronoun Clitic Development in English?
Date: 27 May 2025 10:52:43 GMT
Organization: Stefan Ram
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References: <579841320.770020696.472565.grimblecrumble870-gmail.com@news.newsdemon.com> <clitics-20250527084355@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de> <clitics-20250527094413@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de> <clitics-20250527095731@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
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ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:
>So, I cannot find a source where your (Grimble's) observations
>were used to argue that "'em" is a real clitic in English.

  So, English has these weak forms like "'em" (short for "them"
  [today]), and while they kind of look like the clitics you
  see in languages like Spanish or Italian, they're not really
  the same thing. Here's the rundown on why:

  - First off, in Romance languages, clitics have to show up
    in certain spots around the verb. Sometimes they're
    before, sometimes after, and it depends on the verb form
    and what you're saying. Like in Spanish, you get stuff
    like "me lo dijo", where the clitics are all lined up in a
    row. In English, though, "'em" just sits in the usual
    object spot. You can't move it around, and you can't stick
    it before the verb or anything weird like that. "I threw
    'em out" works, but "*I threw out 'em" is just not a
    thing.
    
  - Also, English weak forms are really just the regular
    pronouns said fast or kind of mumbled. They're not their
    own thing in the sentence; they're just the same old
    pronouns, only trimmed down. In Romance languages, clitics
    are more like their own deal, and you can't just swap in a
    regular pronoun wherever you want.

  - Another thing: Romance clitics like to stick to the verb
    and sometimes pile up together, which you never see with
    English weak forms. "'em" doesn't team up with other weak
    forms or get glued to the verb; it just hangs out where
    the object goes.

  - Plus, Romance clitics are way more baked into the grammar.
    You kind of have to use them in certain situations,
    and they play by a bunch of rules depending on tense,
    negation, and all that. English weak forms are just a
    casual way of saying things, not something the grammar
    really cares about.