Path: g2news1.google.com!news2.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.kjsl.com!ncf.ca!not-for-mail From: Michael Black Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet Subject: Re: Does anybody really care anymore ?? Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 23:17:12 -0400 Organization: National Capital Freenet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Lines: 69 Sender: et...@215-215-235-64-ppp.3menatwork.com Message-ID: References: <9DyKj.974$2g1.363@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com> <9f92eff7b77860deef1c9113f2fb2a35np@goofysplace.com> <86hce72krd.fsf@localhost.localdomain> NNTP-Posting-Host: 215-215-235-64-ppp.3menatwork.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Trace: theodyn.ncf.ca 1208229584 12371 64.235.215.215 (15 Apr 2008 03:19:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Apr 2008 03:19:44 GMT In-Reply-To: <86hce72krd.fsf@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008, Maxwell Lol wrote: > bz writes: > >> Google's Usenet interface should make it clear to users that >> 1) 'Google groups' is REALLY USENET and not associated with Google. >> 2) groups have rules and those rules should be obeyed. > > Do you expect spammers to obey those rules? > But the issue isn't just spammers. When "google groups" was just the Usenet archive (and the ability to post), it did not seem to be a problem. But then they added their own "groups" and that confused things, and likely brought in a bigger user base that was interested in only "web forums". That "google groups 2" interface was very much in favor of their own groups, things like no automatic quoting of what you are replying to, the hiding of email addresses (when it's far simpler to use software connected to a real newsserver to collect email addresses if that's what you want to do, than process their webpages), the lack of distinction between their groups and the Usenet newsgroups they archive. So we get clueless people who are completely unaware of where they are. They think it's fine to change subject headers without referencing the old. They think it's fine to post without quoting, because after all the previous message is right there on the webpage. They are now leading the "there's too much spam here" in various newsgroups, because google archives the spam (I seem to recall the dejanews didn't, or at least not all of it) while many real newsservers will filter out the worst of the spam. I've seen empty messages, an idiot posting with a subject header "there's nothing here" and there isn't actually anything in the message body, and you have to look at the actual headers to see he's replying to something, and see that he's posting via google. Now, there have always been abusers, people who think their right to post overrides how their behaviour affects others. But an awful lot of bad behaviour is coming from google groups. Massively long subject headers (again, how would they know there's a problem, it shows up fine at google;s webpage), and doing horrible things like putting people's names in the subject header in order to address a message to a specific poster. They learn from the bad, and in return set example for others to follow. Yes, part of the problem is because the mass has come to the internet, and they didn't come through the old filtering paths, which at least tended to inform people before they actually did post. But google makes it so easy to post, and gives the illusion that it's just another web forum, that the problem keeps getting worse. Google becomes an excuse for ISPs to turn off newsservers. Well, they say few are using their newsservers, and the cost is too high for the user base, both of which is likely true, but then since they can point to google they can claim they aren't really causing a big loss. But the more google becomes important because of this, the worse the behaviour and the harder it is to get them to become responsible. Like too many of their users, who too often think google is usenet, google itself becomes big enough that they think they are usenet too. The problem started before the increasing wave of spam coming from google. Spammers may not read, but the inconsideration that google shows towards usenet is what allows both the clueless posters and the spammers. Michael