Path: ...!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- rewritten Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 08:39:38 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 104 Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 15:39:39 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="24f2a1964fe8769a85c52084edf5324e"; logging-data="711814"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18zvgg9KMmVRZ/vCx5HqxMl" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:3ewRlMEO3/H2Re8M2MSlU6V5yHg= Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Bytes: 5496 On 6/16/2024 2:08 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: > Op 16.jun.2024 om 14:37 schreef olcott: >> On 6/16/2024 1:21 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>> Op 15.jun.2024 om 17:23 schreef olcott: >>>> On 6/15/2024 10:12 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>> Op 15.jun.2024 om 16:48 schreef olcott: >>>>>> On 6/15/2024 9:37 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is this the new definition of "pathological"? >>>>>> >>>>>> *It is the same thing that I have been saying all along* >>>>>> >>>>>> 00   typedef void (*ptr)(); // pointer to void function >>>>>> 01 >>>>>> 02   int HH(ptr P, ptr I); >>>>>> 03 >>>>>> 04   void DDD(int (*x)()) >>>>>> 05   { >>>>>> 06     HH(x, x); >>>>>> 07     return; >>>>>> 08   } >>>>>> 09 >>>>>> 10   int main() >>>>>> 11   { >>>>>> 12     HH(DDD,DDD); >>>>>> 13   } >>>>>> >>>>>> Line 12 main() >>>>>>    invokes HH(DDD,DDD); that simulates DDD() >>>>>> >>>>>> *REPEAT UNTIL outer HH aborts* >>>>>>    Line 06 simulated DDD() >>>>>>    invokes simulated HH(DDD,DDD); that simulates DDD() >>>>>> >>>>>> DDD correctly simulated by HH never reaches its own "return" >>>>>> instruction and halts. >>>>> >>>>> So, you agree that you are changing definitions. >>>> >>>> Not at all. The original definition still applies when it >>>> is made more generic. >>>> >>>> 01       int D(ptr p) >>>> 02       { >>>> 03         int Halt_Status = H(p, p); >>>> 04         if (Halt_Status) >>>> 05           HERE: goto HERE; >>>> 06         return Halt_Status; >>>> 07       } >>>> >>>> D correctly simulated by H has isomorphic behavior to DDD >>>> correctly simulated by HH, both get stuck in recursive >>>> simulation. >>>> >>> >>> When asked what is a pathological program olcott replied: >>> Op 14.jun.2024 om 21:18 schreef olcott: >>>> For any program H that might determine whether programs halt, a >>>> "pathological" program D, called with some input, can pass its own >>>> source and its input to H and then specifically do the opposite of what >>>> H predicts D will do. No H can exist that handles this case. >>> >>> >>> No he defines a "pathological" program as a program that calls H. >>> All words about doing the opposite of what H predicts, have disappeared. >>> Everyone sees the difference, but he is stuck is rebuttal mode and >>> denies the change of definition. >>> >> >> The code that "does the opposite" was never reachable by >> a simulating halt decider thus does not change the problem >> for a simulating halt decider when this code is removed. > > So, there was never a relation with the Linz proof, where the part that > does the opposite of what H predicts plays the essential role. > This is the key essence of the pathological relationship in all of the halting problem counter-example proofs including the Linz proof. void DDD() { H0(DDD); } int main() { H0(DDD); } > What remains is the fact that H is unable to simulate itself up to its > final state, which is called a "pathological" property of H. > H is always correct to abort the simulation of any input that would cause itself to not terminate normally. When this is construed as non-halting criteria then H is always correct to reject all of these inputs as non-halting. -- Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer