Path: ...!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- rewritten Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 07:44:34 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 140 Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 14:44:35 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="72fba8c553b5e17b65491f92678bf7b8"; logging-data="2375839"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18ZV7rSNtpBShcI3EBfz8Q2" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:nbbXdheT9NFgxa5hHFjV185I6r8= Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Bytes: 7393 On 6/13/2024 3:15 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: > Op 12.jun.2024 om 21:53 schreef olcott: >> On 6/12/2024 2:46 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>> Op 12.jun.2024 om 21:20 schreef olcott: >>>> >>>> On 5/29/2021 2:26 PM, olcott wrote: >>>> https://groups.google.com/g/comp.theory/c/dTvIY5NX6b4/m/cHR2ZPgPBAAJ >>>> >>>> If that was true then you could provide every step of D correctly >>>> simulated by H such that D simulated by H reaches its own simulated >>>> "ret" instruction. >>> >>> I said that each H is unable to hit its target, so how could it reach >>> the "ret" instruction of D? Please, think before you reply. >> >> It is a binary choice either D correctly simulated by H can >> possibly terminate normally by reaching its "ret" instruction >> or not. Your attempt to twist these words to make it look like >> there is more than these two possibilities is either ignorant >> or deceptive. >> > > Please, take some more attention to what I said. Read, then think, > before you reply. > I said that H is not able to reach its own "ret" when it is simulating > itself. That has always been totally irrelevant. > So, no disagreement with that. That proves that H misses its > target. The abort is too early. The target is just some steps further. > It does not mean that the target is at infinity. > The outer H always has one more execution trace to base its halt status decision on than any of the nested emulations. This means that unless the outer H aborts its simulation then none of them do. > It is like an archer who is asked to hit a target twice as far as his > bow can reach. His bow reaches 50m and the target is at 100m. He misses. > Then he uses a new bow that reaches 100m, but now the target is at 200m. > He is able to reach the old target, but again he misses the target for > the new bow. He can continue with a stronger bow, but if the bow reaches > further, the target is also further away. But note, the target is never > at infinity. Sure just like Zeno's paradox where he "proved" that it is impossible to cross a ten foot wide room in finite time. > Similarly, the target of the simulator is never at infinity, but always > some steps further that the simulation goes. You can make a simulator > that simulates further, which can reach the target of the old simulator, > but it is unable to reach its own target. So, there is no infinite > recursion, but the simulation always misses the target. The simulation > is never able to simulate itself up to the end. It always aborts > prematurely. > So, your claim proves that it is not a good idea to simulate H by > itself. It will always miss the target. *As soon as H sees the repeating state it stops* *As soon as H sees the repeating state it stops* *As soon as H sees the repeating state it stops* *If you don't understand the infinite recursion example then* *You lack the required prerequisite knowledge to understand me* void Infinite_Recursion(u32 N) { Infinite_Recursion(N); } int main() { H(Infinite_Recursion, (ptr)5); } _Infinite_Recursion() [00001ca3] 55 push ebp [00001ca4] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00001ca6] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08] [00001ca9] 50 push eax [00001caa] e8f4ffffff call 00001ca3 [00001caf] 83c404 add esp,+04 [00001cb2] 5d pop ebp [00001cb3] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0017) [00001cb3] _main() [00001e23] 55 push ebp [00001e24] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00001e26] 6a05 push +05 ; push 5 [00001e28] 68a31c0000 push 00001ca3 ; push Infinite_Recursion [00001e2d] e8e1f6ffff call 00001513 ; call H [00001e32] 83c408 add esp,+08 [00001e35] eb04 jmp 00001e3b [00001e37] 33c0 xor eax,eax [00001e39] eb02 jmp 00001e3d [00001e3b] 33c0 xor eax,eax [00001e3d] 5d pop ebp [00001e3e] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0028) [00001e3e] machine stack stack machine assembly address address data code language ======== ======== ======== ========= ============= [00001e23][001031e9][00000000] 55 push ebp [00001e24][001031e9][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00001e26][001031e5][00000005] 6a05 push +05 ; push 5 [00001e28][001031e1][00001ca3] 68a31c0000 push 00001ca3 ; push Infinite_Recursion [00001e2d][001031dd][00001e32] e8e1f6ffff call 00001513 ; call H H: Begin Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:113295 Address_of_H:1513 [00001ca3][00113281][00113285] 55 push ebp [00001ca4][00113281][00113285] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00001ca6][00113281][00113285] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08] [00001ca9][0011327d][00000005] 50 push eax ; push param [00001caa][00113279][00001caf] e8f4ffffff call 00001ca3 ; call Infinite_Recursion [00001ca3][00113275][00113281] 55 push ebp [00001ca4][00113275][00113281] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00001ca6][00113275][00113281] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08] [00001ca9][00113271][00000005] 50 push eax ; push param [00001caa][0011326d][00001caf] e8f4ffffff call 00001ca3 ; call Infinite_Recursion H: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped [00001e32][001031e9][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08 [00001e35][001031e9][00000000] eb04 jmp 00001e3b [00001e3b][001031e9][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax [00001e3d][001031ed][00000018] 5d pop ebp [00001e3e][001031f1][00000000] c3 ret Number of Instructions Executed(1104) == 16 Pages -- Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer