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From: RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Creationism, Intelligent Design and Vendanta
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 08:11:11 -0500
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On 8/14/2024 6:50 PM, RonO wrote:
> On 8/14/2024 4:16 PM, RonO wrote:
>> On 8/14/2024 10:52 AM, Ernest Major wrote:
>>> On 14/08/2024 14:45, RonO wrote:
>>>> On 8/14/2024 5:08 AM, Burkhard wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 0:57:13 +0000, Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Burkhard wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 16:24:30 +0000, Kestrel Clayton wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 06-Aug-24 09:46, RonO wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I found an article on creationism, intelligent design and 
>>>>>>>>> Vendanta. Even
>>>>>>>>> though Kalkidas came out as a normal Biblical creationists 
>>>>>>>>> there have
>>>>>>>>> been Hindu sympathetic to Scientific Creationism and the ID 
>>>>>>>>> creationist
>>>>>>>>> scam on TO.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4802803/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The author thinks that science is a search for truth.  I have 
>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>> considered science to be a search for truth.  It is just the 
>>>>>>>>> best means
>>>>>>>>> we have of developing a working understanding of nature.  This
>>>>>>>>> understanding may not be the "truth" but it could be close, and 
>>>>>>>>> allows
>>>>>>>>> us to improve our understanding of nature and expand a functional
>>>>>>>>> understanding of the reality that we exist in.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I do not recall Kalk ever stating how intelligent design 
>>>>>>>>> supported his
>>>>>>>>> hindu beliefs, and vice versa, but he did quote the Vedas from 
>>>>>>>>> time to
>>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A section of the paper compares Vendata to the ID creationist 
>>>>>>>>> scam.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Huh. I missed Kalkidas coming out as a fundamentalist Christian
>>>>>>>> creationist. Did he have a conversion experience, or was he a 
>>>>>>>> Christian
>>>>>>>> all along and lying about it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> neither, as far as I can tell. Though of course conversions, while
>>>>>>> comparatively rare, do happen. But as far as I'm aware, he always 
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> and  still is a follower of Vaishnavism.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He only ever objected to certain labels (with some good reasons 
>>>>>>> I'd say)
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> the use of the exonym Hinduism
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Either way, I'm not all that surprised. For a lot of folks, 
>>>>>>>> denialism
>>>>>>>> isn't about what is, but rather what ISN'T: Moon landing 
>>>>>>>> denialists will
>>>>>>>> gladly accommodate flat-Earthers, orbit-onlyists,
>>>>>>>> fake-landings-real-pictures, fake-pictures-real-landings, and even
>>>>>>>> "secret nazi base on the far side of the Moon" crackpots, as 
>>>>>>>> long as
>>>>>>>> they all agree that the official account is somehow bogus.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, that's possibly closer the issue, as you, me and pretty 
>>>>>>> much all
>>>>>>> other contributors to TO on the science side are dead, we just
>>>>>>> did not get the memo yet - the bioengineered Covid vaccine killed
>>>>>>> us all, as planned by the oligarchs, for reasons unknown. Or so
>>>>>>> Kalkidas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wasn't it Nando who was sure we'd all be dead by now? Was he an
>>>>>> alter-ego of Kalkidas?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> not alter ego, and of course much worse, but somewhat disappointingly
>>>>> in case of Kalkidas, he also predicted imminent doom. To
>>>>> rephrase Chesterton's dictum (on victorian atheists), When a
>>>>> person stops believing in science they don’t then believe
>>>>> in nothing, they believe anything.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think Eddie was a JW or was bounced from the group, and they had a 
>>>> dooms day theology.  Their profit or leader claimed to have 
>>>> calculated the end times.  At that time they were day for ages 
>>>> creationists that believed that each day was 7 thousand years long 
>>>> and that the final 7 thousand years was set to end in the 1970's, 
>>>> but it didn't happen, and the guy kept revising his calculations 
>>>> until he died, and his last predicted date came and went.  
>>>> Apparently some JW believe that the world actually ended as 
>>>> predicted it just is not that noticeable.  The Scientific 
>>>> Creationists at the ICR initially accommodated their 50,000 year age 
>>>> of the earth (at one time the ICR was claiming that the earth had to 
>>>> be less than 50,000 years old, but currently they are claiming less 
>>>> than 20,000 after the defection of the JW) because the JW were one 
>>>> of the main supporters for scientific creationism in the 70's and 
>>>> 80's, but when Eddie put up their current creationist theology where 
>>>> each day can be any length of time, and they reinterpreted when the 
>>>> sun and moon were created.  I do not think that Eddie had been aware 
>>>> of how his theology had changed within the last few decades and 
>>>> pointing out how drastically his creationist beliefs had changed 
>>>> seemed to be something that Eddie couldn't deal with.  Eddie was 
>>>> impervious to any rational reasoning, but the fact that his biblical 
>>>> literalistic views had changed so drastically seemed to destroy his 
>>>> fervor to support the current creationist claims.  After that he 
>>>> wasn't as active as a poster. Eddie quit posting, probably, within 
>>>> half a year after putting up his then current JW creationist 
>>>> alternative.  He seemed to have self destructed by finally 
>>>> understanding what he was supposed to believe.
>>>>
>>>> Ron Okimoto
>>>>
>>>
>>> As I understand, one Christian millenarian position is the universe 
>>> will last seven thousand years, each thousand years corresponding to 
>>> one of the seven days of creation. According to the 
>>> pre-tribulationist faction the Rapture occurs after 6,000 years, to 
>>> be followed by a thousand years of tribulation. Adopting Usher's 
>>> 4,004 B.C. date, that places the rapture at 1997.
>>>
>>
>> There is a theology of each day of creation lasting 1,000 years, but 
>> they are still YEC.  The JW had 7,000 years for each day for some 
>> reason.  Their leader thought that the earth was destined to last for 
>> 49,000 years after the beginning of creation.  You don't see much 
>> about this theology any more, and the JW seem to be pretty standard 
>> day for ages old earth creationists like the Reason to Believe 
>> creationists. Each day was a period of time that could span billions 
>> of years.  The issue that Reason to Believe has run into is that the 
>> evidence doesn't fit the Biblical order of creation.  In this reality 
>> land plants do not evolve until long after the Cambrian explosion of 
>> various sea creatures, and the crop plants (angiosperms) do not show 
>> up in the fossil record until long after there were land animals.  
>> Dinos were running around before the first angiosperms evolved.  The 
>> Reason to Believe guys also have some weird belief that whales had to 
>> be created with the first sea creatures (at the same time as Cambrian 
>> fauna) but they obviously did not exist until land mammals had 
>> evolved.  They have a "recreation" model where kinds are recreated a 
>> little differently that makes it look like they evolved, but whales 
>> don't fit in and would have had to be recreated land kinds long after 
>> the initial sea creatures were created.
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