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Failed to connect to MySQL: (1203) User howardkn already has more than 'max_user_connections' active connectionsPath: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!news.quux.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Phil Hobbs Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design Subject: Re: Oscilloscope delivers 25 GHz bandwith on 4 channels Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 13:17:37 -0000 (UTC) Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 177 Message-ID: References: <6upbljteudjb1bgc8trmblif647t9c0c6h@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 14:17:38 +0100 (CET) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="5dd846b469c6c82deb66111f2a54e59f"; logging-data="1039630"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19gGpcenBmhKvEMnwUCfVAR" User-Agent: NewsTap/5.5 (iPhone/iPod Touch) Cancel-Lock: sha1:d/ArHq0hvEBHKOqTkYtC+aios2Q= sha1:X/tpvx6oaBNHMS9mnOz05e8jrWg= Bytes: 9782 Phil Hobbs wrote: > Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote: >> On 10-12-2024 02:16, Phil Hobbs wrote: >>> Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote: >>>> On 10-12-2024 00:14, Phil Hobbs wrote: >>>>> Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote: >>>>>> On 08-12-2024 21:41, Phil Hobbs wrote: >>>>>>> john larkin wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 18:26:07 +0100, Jeroen Belleman >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in : >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time >>>>>>>>>>>>>> acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger >>>>>>>>>>>>>> data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Only 25,645 ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the real audiophiles!! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and >>>>>>>>>>>> downconvert to about 1 GHz... >>>>>>>>>>>> that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick. >>>>>>>>>>>> I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more >>>>>>>>>>>> At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer? >>>>>>>>>>>> From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal >>>>>>>>>> into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and >>>>>>>>>> digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together >>>>>>>>>> mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small >>>>>>>>>> for those megabuck scopes. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as >>>>>>>>> a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've done that and have a PCB, TDR actually. It seemed to work but I >>>>>>>> haven't had much time to play with it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does anyone want to take over and see how well it actually works? I >>>>>>>> guess it could become a product. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y88pcdjfd0qovxmpfizwu/Z368.JPG?rlkey=fu4bng7i34yjbol7s1npapp8x&raw=1 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's one of those tiles. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Simon and I are just finishing up a TDR gizmo for measuring soil moisture >>>>>>> and salinity vs depth for an ag customer. It’s a 150-ps-class device, >>>>>>> which is much better than good enough for the application, and we’re >>>>>>> getting the first 20 fully-stuffed boards for $23 each from JLCPCB, >>>>>>> including the data converters, MCU, voltage regulators, as well as the TDR >>>>>>> proper. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It uses a two-diode sampler, which avoids the major pain of sampler design, >>>>>>> the need to match diodes. Of course it has horrible kickout, but that’s >>>>>>> perfectly okay in this situation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fun gizmo. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> At an earlier employment a proposal was made to include a TDR into a >>>>>> product, to be able to preventive warn of cable faults or even motor >>>>>> winding shorts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Then a RF engineer, one that I never liked much, took the brute force >>>>>> approach using a GHz sampling ADC, costing hundreds of dollars per >>>>>> product (would effectively kill the idea). He said it could not be done >>>>>> in any other way. >>>>>> >>>>>> I then made a diode sampler, with a sliding picosecond STM32 timer, and >>>>>> made it for 10 USD instead :-) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Our gizmo is replacing something like that—a 250 MSa transient digitizer >>>>> run in equivalent time mode. Its BOM cost was around $400, plus a lot of >>>>> the parts were EOL. >>>>> >>>>> Savings like that sure make the licensing conversation easier. ;) >>>>> >>>> So you were able to make a deal with the client that you part owned the >>>> IP, and could use it for other projects? >>>> >>>> I am in a similar situation right now, working on a dedicated HW >>>> solution that I would like to begin to sell afterwards. Guessing either >>>> telling the client they get later improvements to the design for free, >>>> reducing my hours billed, or letting them get a percentage of the >>>> profits of my sales. >>>> >>> >>> The conversation is still underway, but I expect that we’ll wind up with a >>> win-win deal, as we have previously. >>> >>> We position ourselves as a design consultancy with a lot of existing >>> “background IP”, including full product designs, design studies, and >>> general know-how. >>> >>> In the present case, we’re looking at filing a patent for a new measurement >>> principle, and charging the customer a combined patent/know-how royalty. >>> Since the total cost is a good bit less than the BOM savings alone, the >>> negotiations are pretty amicable. ;) >> >> Sounds like an idea situation. Important to take that upfront >> >> I have spend a lot of time on cost savings over the years, so when I >> take a consulting assignment, I often try to solve the task and reduce >> cost significantly at the same time. Ideally with a ROI of a year. That >> is a compelling selling argument against the customer. >> >> Cheers >> >> Klaus >> > > Yup. It’s worth pitching a royalty,because the value you bring isn’t just a > one-time payoff. That’s true whether you’re customizing an existing design > or doing something new. You have a lot of background IP, including > previous designs, design approaches, circuit topologies, and general expertise, such as how to make an amplifier fast and accurate while avoiding oscillation. > > The most common objection is, “We’re paying you for the work—why should we > pay twice?” The answer is that the royalty (5% of revenue or thereabouts) > is for the background IP, and the hourly work is for customizing it to > their application. > > Try saying that you want to succeed together with them—that gets the point > across pretty well, we find. > ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========