Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: Sufficient knowledge of C proves that DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2025 14:36:51 -0600 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 239 Message-ID: References: <228a9804d6919149bac728ccf08134ed90db121e@i2pn2.org> <6f15178eda69b13fae9cbfef29acad05c9c6aeb3@i2pn2.org> <1454e934b709b66a0cb9de9e9796cb46fed0425c@i2pn2.org> <274abb70abec9d461ac3eb34c0980b7421f5fabd@i2pn2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2025 21:36:52 +0100 (CET) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="c492ea1606c78cee9e5da7f1d71e9cb2"; logging-data="1454414"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19ifvX+PVnj7GKVzN8+oEY4" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:jrVnJTrOJQjX82TTrHZs97sXGk0= X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250210-8, 2/10/2025), Outbound message Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Bytes: 13307 On 2/10/2025 12:41 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: > Op 10.feb.2025 om 13:27 schreef olcott: >> On 2/10/2025 6:14 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>> Op 10.feb.2025 om 12:51 schreef olcott: >>>> On 2/10/2025 2:22 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 20:54 schreef olcott: >>>>>> On 2/9/2025 1:33 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 20:04 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 12:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 18:00 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 10:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 16:18 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 2:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 07:10 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 15:47 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:57 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 06:53 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 7:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 8:12 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 5:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 11:26 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 6:20 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 10:02 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 8:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 5:18 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 1:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 1:26 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 10:52 AM, Bonita Montero wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am 05.02.2025 um 16:11 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/5/2025 1:44 AM, Bonita Montero wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am 05.02.2025 um 04:38 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This treatment does not typically last >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very long and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be immediately followed by a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> riskier fourth line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of treatment that has an initial success >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rate much higher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than its non progression mortality rate. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halting problem solved ! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The halting problem proof input does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specify non- halting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior to its decider. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publication/369971402_Simulating_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LOOOOOOOOL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone that understands the C programming >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficiently well (thus not confused by the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unreachable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "if" statement) correctly understands that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD simulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by HHH cannot possibly reach its own return >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instruction. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And anyone that understand the halting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem knows that isn't the question being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> asked. The quesiton you NEED to ask is will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the program described by the input halt when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> run? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since you start off with the wrong question, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you logic is just faulty. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone that thinks my question is incorrect >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is wrong. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It has always been a mathematical mapping from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strings to behaviors. That people do not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehend this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shows the shallowness of the depth of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> learned- by- rote >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (lack of) understanding. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, you are just incorreect as you don't know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you are talking about. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it is a mapping of the string to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior, and that mapping is DEFINED to be the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halting behavior of the program the string >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> describes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No this is incorrect. The input finite string >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifies >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (not merely describes) non halting behavior to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its decider. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, since the definition of "Halting Behavior" is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the behavior of the progran being run. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It may seem that way to people that have learned- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by- rote >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as their only basis. It is actually nothing like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, that *IS* the definition. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A termination analyzer computes the mapping from finite >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strings to the actual behavior that these finite >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strings >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specify. That this is not dead obvious to everyone here >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely proves that learned-by-rote does not involve any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual comprehension. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And the behavior the finite string specifies is the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of running the program. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is verifiably factually incorrect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The running program has a different execution trace >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the behavior that DD specifies to HHH. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, then it proves the failure of the simulation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The simulation aborts too soon on unsound grounds, one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cycle before the normal termination of the program. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This proves that you simply don't have sufficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding of the C programming language. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD simulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a verified fact. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which proves that HHH fails to make a correct decision >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about DD's halting behaviour. All other methods (direct >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution, simulation by a world class simulator, etc.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> show that DD halts. But HHH fails to see it. Everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with sufficient understanding of programming sees that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is not correctly programmed when it aborts one cycle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before the simulation would end normally. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> typedef void (*ptr)(); >>>>>>>>>>>>>> int HHH(ptr P); >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> int DD() >>>>>>>>>>>>>> { >>>>>>>>>>>>>>    int Halt_Status = HHH(DD); >>>>>>>>>>>>>>    if (Halt_Status) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>      HERE: goto HERE; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>    return Halt_Status; >>>>>>>>>>>>>> } >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========