Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: Sufficient knowledge of C proves that DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 21:54:13 -0600 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 270 Message-ID: References: <50488790b3d697cccde5689919b1d1d001b01965@i2pn2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 04:54:14 +0100 (CET) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="eaccb562998a61cdf46fb699775ff03c"; logging-data="1515103"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18uJRtI15jqdw7W7/2ke0M7" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:uAC4imwTf6Q1bGmE55TouQHt2ZU= X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250217-12, 2/17/2025), Outbound message Bytes: 16932 On 2/17/2025 6:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 2/17/25 3:25 PM, olcott wrote: >> On 2/17/2025 2:16 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>> Op 17.feb.2025 om 18:11 schreef olcott: >>>> On 2/17/2025 9:43 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>> Op 17.feb.2025 om 15:06 schreef olcott: >>>>>> On 2/17/2025 2:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>> Op 16.feb.2025 om 23:00 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 2:16 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>> Op 16.feb.2025 om 13:58 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 3:44 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Op 15.feb.2025 om 20:21 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/15/2025 2:06 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 22:18 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 8:01 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 13:48 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 01:12 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 8:47 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 13.feb.2025 om 13:31 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 3:16 AM, joes wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:18:32 -0600 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/11/2025 2:05 PM, joes wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Tue, 11 Feb 2025 10:19:11 -0600 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/11/2025 9:23 AM, joes wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 15:38:37 -0600 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 2:48 PM, joes wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 08:46:21 -0600 schrieb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 6:52 AM, joes wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 06:02:48 -0600 schrieb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 5:16 AM, joes wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 09 Feb 2025 13:54:39 -0600 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 1:33 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 20:04 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 12:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 18:00 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 10:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 16:18 schreef >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 2:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 07:10 schreef >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:54 PM, Fred. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 15:47 schreef >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:57 AM, Fred. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 06:53 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 7:27 PM, Richard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 8:12 PM, olcott >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 5:56 PM, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 11:26 AM, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 6:20 AM, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 10:02 PM, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 8:21 PM, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 5:18 PM, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 1:51 PM, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 1:26 PM, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 10:52 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AM, Bonita Montero >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which proves that HHH fails to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make a correct >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decision about DD's halting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviour. All other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> methods (direct execution, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation by a world class >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulator, etc.) show >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that DD halts. But HHH fails to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see it. Everyone with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficient understanding of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming sees that HHH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not correctly programmed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when it aborts one cycle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before the simulation would end >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normally. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The execution trace only shows >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that HHH is unable to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete its simulation, because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is unable to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate itself. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It turns out that Olcott does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even understand this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple proof that HHH produces >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> false negatives. HHH is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to simulate itself up to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normal termination. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, in other words, Olcott denies >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified facts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH generates false negatives, as is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>               int main() { >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 return HHH(main); >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>               } >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but he denies it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He lacks the ability to accept simple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified facts, which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he tries to hide with a lot of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irrelevant words. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a verified fact that main cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly be correctly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by HHH until its normal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> termination. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed, which proves that HHH is unable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to simulate itself >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was true then you could point >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out exactly where HHH is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is supposed to be a decider, i.e. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt and return the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct value. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The directly executed HHH(DD) always halts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and returns a correct >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value as soon as it correctly determines >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that its input cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly terminate normally. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We were talking about HHH(HHH). If the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> outer HHH halts according >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to spec, so does the inner, because it is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same. Therefore it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can’t report „non-halting” and be correct. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the inner HHH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn’t halt, it is not a decider. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not going to ever talk about that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh goody, you’re never getting anywhere if you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reject corrections. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I reject infinite deflection away from the point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The absolute >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> single-mined focus point is that DD correctly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by HHH cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible terminate normally. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That IS the point. DD does nothing else than call HHH. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since there is a 5% chance that the treatment I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will have next month >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will kill me and this treatment is my only good >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance I will totally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignore anything that diverges from the point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok, I will wait a month then. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========