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From: Mark Isaak <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: To sum up
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 09:16:27 -0800
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On 2/17/25 3:05 AM, MarkE wrote:
> On 15/02/2025 10:06 pm, jillery wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 15:59:53 +1100, MarkE <me22over7@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 15/02/2025 1:53 pm, Mark Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2/8/25 5:06 AM, MarkE wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My argument is therefore, as complexity goes up, the challenges to
>>>>> naturalistic OOL and evolution also increase.
>>>>
>>>> Evolution produces complexity without the least concern. Design 
>>>> tries to
>>>> minimize it and create simplicity. As complexity goes up, the challenge
>>>> to designed OOL also increases.
>>>>
>>>
>>> My assertion is self-evident, is it not? I.e.:
>>>
>>> OOL: the more complex the first self-replicating entity needs to be, the
>>> greater the challenge to its prebiotic (i.e. pre-Darwinian evolution)
>>> formation.
>>>
>>> Evolution: the more complex a "higher" organism, given a maximum
>>> plausible rate of mutation, fixation and time, the greater the challenge
>>> to its evolution.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, your assertion that "evolution produces complexity
>>> without the least concern" is not self-evident, and is neither an
>>> argument nor a rebuttal. The capability of evolution to produce
>>> complexity is, rather, a fundamental contention.
>>
>>
>> Here's an opportunity for you to actually speak to me, instead of your
>> usual petty sniping.  I understand your arguments stated above.
>>
>> WRT OOL: It's unknown what the complexity of a self-replicating entity
>> "needs to be". Any estimates about this are based on *assumptions*
>> about the mechanism(s) which could create the first self-replicating
>> entity, and the environment(s) which could support those mechanism(s).
>> This makes your claim a GotG argument.
>>
>> WRT OOL and Evolution: The fatal flaw with both of your arguments is
>> they conflate complexity with functionality.  The one does not inform
>> the other.  The actual challenge to evolution is to create better
>> functionality for a given environment.
>>
>> Pro Ployd's concurrent post WRT altitude hypoxia illustrates the
>> difference.  Most humans respond to extreme altitude by increasing
>> their hematocrit.  This is a simple but at best temporary solution,
>> with long-term and fatal complications. A simpler and better solution
>> most mountain human populations did is to change their hemoglobin to
>> increase its oxygen saturation.  Of course, this requires time for
>> natural selection to select for this trait, and some individuals will
>> likely die without it.
>>
>> Once again, your obsession with complexity serves you poorly.
>>
> 
> Agreed, care is needed in defining complexity and its relationship to 
> function.
> 
> The challenge to evolution is the creation of functional complexity. 
> Here is a description of the ultimate manifestation of functional 
> complexity:
> 
> 'The human brain contains some 100 billion neurons, which together form 
> a network of Internet-like complexity. Christof Koch, chief scientific 
> officer of the Allen Institute for Brain Science, calls the brain "the 
> most complex object in the known universe," and he's mapping its 
> connections in hopes of discovering the origins of consciousness.'
> http://www.npr.org/2013/06/14/191614360/decoding-the-most-complex- 
> object-in-the-universe
> 
> 'According to physicist Roger Penrose, what’s in our head is orders of 
> magnitude more complex than anything one sees in the Universe: "If you 
> look at the entire physical cosmos," says Penrose, "our brains are a 
> tiny, tiny part of it. But they're the most perfectly organized part. 
> Compared to the complexity of a brain, a galaxy is just an inert lump."'
> 
> 'Each cubic millimeter of tissue in the neocortex, reports Michael 
> Chorost in World Wide Mind, contains between 860 million and 1.3 billion 
> synapses. Estimates of the total number of synapses in the neocortex 
> range from 164 trillion to 200 trillion. The total number of synapses in 
> the brain as a whole is much higher than that. The neocortex has the 
> same number of neurons as a galaxy has stars: 100 billion. One 
> researcher estimates that with current technology it would take 10,000 
> automated microscopes thirty years to map the connections between every 
> neuron in a human brain, and 100 million terabytes of disk space to 
> store the data.'
> http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2015/12/human-brain-intelligence- 
> networks-identified-.html
> 
> Can we deduce "complexity therefore design" from this? That's one question.

If you do make that deduction, you will be committing the fallacy of 
assuming your conclusion.

-- 
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell