Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: Sufficient knowledge of C proves that DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 22:20:32 -0600 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 125 Message-ID: References: <274abb70abec9d461ac3eb34c0980b7421f5fabd@i2pn2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 05:20:33 +0100 (CET) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="fa27f2fe55e15101834b8f29d921b55a"; logging-data="3497668"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/h7DHuUYgQORU2nzk5kDkL" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:B1NmF4AVzFXbe3xXkCrSZ5AavZw= In-Reply-To: X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250213-10, 2/13/2025), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 8190 On 2/13/2025 9:15 PM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 2/13/25 7:09 PM, olcott wrote: >> On 2/13/2025 4:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>> Op 13.feb.2025 om 05:12 schreef olcott: >>>> On 2/11/2025 10:44 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>> Op 11.feb.2025 om 17:22 schreef olcott: >>>>>> On 2/11/2025 10:10 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>> Op 11.feb.2025 om 15:38 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>> On 2/11/2025 1:28 AM, joes wrote: >>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 14:36:51 -0600 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 12:41 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Op 10.feb.2025 om 13:27 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 6:14 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 10.feb.2025 om 12:51 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 2:22 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 20:54 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 1:33 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 20:04 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 12:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 18:00 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 10:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 16:18 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 2:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 07:10 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 15:47 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:57 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 06:53 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 7:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 8:12 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 5:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 11:26 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 6:20 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 10:02 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 8:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 5:18 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 1:51 PM, Richard Damon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 1:26 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 10:52 AM, Bonita >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Montero wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am 05.02.2025 um 16:11 schrieb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/5/2025 1:44 AM, Bonita >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Montero wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am 05.02.2025 um 04:38 schrieb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, in other words, Olcott denies verified facts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH generates false negatives, as is verified in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          int main() {           return HHH(main); >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          } >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but he denies it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He lacks the ability to accept simple verified facts, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which he >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tries to hide with a lot of irrelevant words. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a verified fact that main cannot possibly be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by HHH until its normal termination. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed, which proves that HHH is unable to simulate itself >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was true then you could point out exactly where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is true as a verified fact and has been pointed out to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Olcott >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many times, but he refuses to learn. So, again: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a verified fact that main halts, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a verified fact that the input to HHH(main) cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminate normally. >>>>>>>>>>>>> No, the verified fact is that the input can terminatie >>>>>>>>>>>>> normally >>>>>>>>>>>> The directly executed main IS NOT THE INPUT TO HHH. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This main is a program that includes all functions called >>>>>>>>>>> directly and >>>>>>>>>>> indirectly, including HHH. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The input to HHH(main) when correctly simulated by HHH cannot >>>>>>>>>> possibly >>>>>>>>>> terminate normally. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The input to HHH, which is main(), terminates. HHH does not >>>>>>>>> simulate that. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The directly executed main() is not the same instance of >>>>>>>> main() that is input to HHH and simulated by HHH. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The directly executed main() relies on HHH aborting >>>>>>>> the simulation of its input. HHH cannot rely on anything >>>>>>>> else aborting the simulation of its input. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The simulating HHH should rely on the simulated HHH to abort. >>>>>> >>>>>> That cannot possibly work. The executed HHH always sees at least one >>>>>> more full execution trace than any inner HHH ever sees. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Indeed, that is what I said, but Olcott deleted it in the citation. >>>>> HHH cannot do what it should do. So, he proves the halting theorem. >>>> >>>> If the sentence it false it does not become true in some greater >>>> context. >>> >>> Indeed and since it is false that the simulated HHH would not abort, >> >> This is simply beyond your skill level. >> Since each HHH is exactly the same unless the first >> one aborts none of them do. >> >> > > But the first one DOES abort, as that is how it was defined to be. > > And thus, the one that DD calls aborts. > A program that is no longer being simulated DOES NOTHING -- Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer