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NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2025 15:24:21 +0000
From: john larkin
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Fast sampler
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2025 07:24:21 -0800
Message-ID: <1pejsj1m286nn5ggclpfi3drkn2j5mnf28@4ax.com>
References: <4eaced48-83bc-4f69-5bdf-a26650bd583a@electrooptical.net> <6aac874a-8283-026b-1af5-33295c858e67@electrooptical.net>
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On Thu, 6 Mar 2025 14:53:43 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
wrote:
>Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> john larkin wrote:
>>> On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 20:10:08 -0500, Phil Hobbs
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2025-03-05 20:07, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> On 3/5/25 5:00 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>> On 2025-03-05 19:15, john larkin wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 18:20:47 -0500, Phil Hobbs
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi, All,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Late last year we did a fast sampler/TDR with nice clean 60 ps edges.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We're gearing up to actually sell them, so I did a short technical
>>>>>>>> writeup on the design, which may be of interest.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neat. No step-recovery diodes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, 40 years does get you something sometimes. ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And those cheap yet blazingly fast RF transistors, thanks to cell phones
>>>>> and all. They make nice pulsers. But they are like the princess on the
>>>>> pea, very low Vce and if you go a smidgen above ... poof.
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They're not that bad, really--their betas are so high that BV_CEO is
>>>> lowish, but BV_CBO is 12 volts or more. Their saturation behavior is
>>>> still pretty BJTish, though. ;)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>
>>> I toyed with the idea of using a PHEMT as a series-switch fast
>>> sample-and-hold.
>>
>> They work well for that. A couple of years back, we did a POC for the Navy
>> that used several SAV551pluses—100 ps is doable. The main problem is that
>> their voltage gain is lowish, so you don’t get as much speedup as with a
>> BJT.
>>
>> And of course they’re 10x the price.
>>
>>>
>>> Hey, here's another goofy idea:
>>>
>>> We used to make fast linear ramps, driving a comparator against a DAC,
>>> as a programmable delay. But we got smarter and just used an RC
>>> charging thing, and mucked the DAC codes with a polynomial to get our
>>> delay.
>>>
>>> But what if the comparator sees a fast RC on one input and a slow RC
>>> on the other? The exponential curves cancel, and you get a nice slow
>>> linear sampling timebase. If you don't quibble too much.
>>
>> Not sure about that. For the proto, I used a ramp from an arb to make the
>> threshold—the sampling loop converged at each point, so I wound up with a
>> 10**7:1 zoom—10 us per picosecond.
>>
>> The fast bit was all over before the slow bit moved perceptibly.
>>
>
>The other issue is that the prop delay depends on the overdrive. Since
>we’re comparing a ramp to a fixed threshold, which that basically means how
>far the ramp rises during the time required for the positive feedback to
>get going.
>
>So we still need an online calibration. Fortunately that isn’t hard—an
>open-circuited bit of coax is enough. It doesn’t have to be done often.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs
I did caution about quibbling too much. One issue is that the LVDS
line receivers have a bunch of offset as the common-mode voltage
approaches the positive supply rail. And of course the esd diodes are
nonlinear capacitors. And things always ring a little. Geez, nobody's
perfect.
One of my guys did a bunch experiments using an LVDS receiver as the
comparator in a picosecond-resolution delay circuit. We use a 16-bit
DAC and a 4th order polynomial and calibrate the polynomial for every
channel. Our P500 has, I recall, nine of those.
https://highlandtechnology.com/Product/P500
When I was young and foolish, I used to do time delays with linear
ramps and ECL comparators.