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Failed to connect to MySQL: (1203) User howardkn already has more than 'max_user_connections' active connectionsPath: ...!news.roellig-ltd.de!news.mb-net.net!open-news-network.org!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!feeds.news.ox.ac.uk!news.ox.ac.uk!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: Martin Harran Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Evolutionary creationism Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 16:28:14 +0000 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 450 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="6690"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272 To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:apf+m9XLU3ruIOVorOS+YcPlGC0= Return-Path: X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id 9941522978C; Thu, 20 Mar 2025 12:28:29 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A630229783 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2025 12:28:27 -0400 (EDT) by pi-dach.dorfdsl.de (8.18.1/8.18.1/Debian-6~bpo12+1) with ESMTPS id 52KGSIib1565422 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2025 17:28:18 +0100 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.eternal-september.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0224B622B0 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2025 16:28:15 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: name/0224B622B0; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com id ABBC9DC01CA; Thu, 20 Mar 2025 17:28:15 +0100 (CET) X-Injection-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 17:28:15 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX1/wlpxtn00AzI0aCjV5KjId8I1DTUvozNk= DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED,RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED,RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS, SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED,URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS,USER_IN_WELCOMELIST,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 smtp.eternal-september.org Bytes: 27622 On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 18:11:27 -0500, RonO wrote: >On 3/19/2025 3:36 PM, Martin Harran wrote: >> And so the bullshit contuue to fly.n Wed, 19 Mar 2025 13:30:04 -0500, >> RonO wrote: >> >>> On 3/19/2025 10:57 AM, Martin Harran wrote: >>>> On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 10:01:39 -0500, RonO >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 3/19/2025 8:28 AM, Martin Harran wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 08:12:58 -0500, RonO >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/19/2025 6:24 AM, Martin Harran wrote: >>>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 17:32:39 -0500, RonO >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 3/18/2025 12:13 PM, Martin Harran wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 08:41:05 -0500, RonO >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/18/2025 3:02 AM, Martin Harran wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> rOn Mon, 17 Mar 2025 12:42:09 -0500, RonO >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [Mercy snip] >>>>>>>>>>>>> What does this matter? You were still lying. They aren't literally >>>>>>>>>>>>> denying natural mechanisms >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So you have kept insisting that they deny that natural mechanisms were >>>>>>>>>>>> involved in evolution. Now you admit that they don't say that but you >>>>>>>>>>>> claim that I am the one who is lying. It's perfectly clear that I have >>>>>>>>>>>> been right all along, the claims you have been making about them are >>>>>>>>>>>> all the products of your bullshit interpretation. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I have never denied that, what I have always contended is that they deny >>>>>>>>>>> that it was all natural. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Let's get this perfectly clear, do you now agree that the stuff you >>>>>>>>>> are claiming about them is not what they actually say, it is what >>>>>>>>>> think is the consequence of what they say? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Let's get this perfectly clear, you have lied about what I have claimed >>>>>>>> >from the beginning. They are Biblical literalists that claim that their >>>>>>>>> god made man in his own image. I have always claimed that they are >>>>>>>>> theistic evolutionists. Their own claims make them tweekers like Behe. >>>>>>>>> They claim that their god is using miracles and is actively involved in >>>>>>>>> the creation, and still is actively involved today. It isn't the >>>>>>>>> consequence of what they claim, it is what they claim. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Why try to lie about "consequences" of what they claim? It is literally >>>>>>>>> what they are claiming. You ran from the quotes, and now you are just >>>>>>>>> lying about them again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I didn't run from any quotes, on the contrary I endorsed them. What I >>>>>>>> did was disagree with *your conclusions* which you tried to present as >>>>>>>> some sort of established fact. You have this rather weird notion that >>>>>>>> when somebody disagrees with your conclusions, they are telling lies. >>>>>>>> That's not just with me, I've seen you do it with other people. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why lie about what you did. Go up and see for yourself. You left the >>>>>>> quotes in, but ran from them and started lying about what they meant. >>>>>>> What is the definition of supernatural miracles? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My example has always been Behe as a tweeker, >>>>>>>>>>> and you know that for a fact. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You keep insisting that there is no difference between them and Behe. >>>>>>>>>> He, however, gave three specific examples of what he regards as >>>>>>>>>> tweaking - the bacterial flagellum, the blood clotting cascade and the >>>>>>>>>> immune system.[1] You have not been able to give even one example of >>>>>>>>>> anything that Biologos regards as tweaking, all you can do is try to >>>>>>>>>> change the goalposts by waving your hands about unspecified miracles >>>>>>>>>> which are something completely outside of science, nothing to do with >>>>>>>>>> denying science. For example, what *science* is contradicted or denied >>>>>>>>>> by the belief in the supernatural Resurrection of Christ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have always said that some of them are tweekers like Behe because of >>>>>>>>> what I quoted them as claiming. They are more honest about it than >>>>>>>>> Behe, in that they admit that they believe supernatural miracles were >>>>>>>>> involved. "Supernatural" was their claim making them just as much a >>>>>>>>> denier of natural processes as Behe. Supernatural miracles are not >>>>>>>>> natural by definition. "Puffs of smoke" is all that Behe has claimed >>>>>>>>> about the unnatural designer did it mechanisms that he claims for his >>>>>>>>> designer tweeking. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You keep bringing up miracles as some form of tweaking. Behe gives 3 >>>>>>>> specific examples of what you regard as tweaking. His bacterial >>>>>>>> flagellum is a new life form; his blood clotting cascade and the >>>>>>>> immune system affect multiple species and all individuals belonging to >>>>>>>> each specie. Please give an example of a miracle that Biologos claims >>>>>>>> to create a newlifeform or affect an entire species - just one example >>>>>>>> will do. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They claim that their god made man in his own image (one of the quotes >>>>>>> that you are denial of), and they claim that their Biblical literalist >>>>>>> interpretation makes them believe that. Not only that, but they do not >>>>>>> have to make specific claims about what miracles had to occur, just that >>>>>>> they did occur. Behe's claims are not about new lifeforms, but about >>>>>>> subsystems within existing lifeforms that existed at that time. Behe >>>>>>> has claimed that his designer would have been responsible for creating 3 >>>>>>> neutral mutations in order to evolve a new function like the flagellum. >>>>>>> Behe understood that parts of the flagellum like the F0 ATPase motor had >>>>>>> existed for a couple billion years before it was used in the flagellum. >>>>>>> It likely evolved in the first chemotrophes before it was also used in >>>>>>> photosynthesis, and then in oxidative phosphorylation. Behe was a >>>>>>> tweeker. His designer was working within an evolutionary framework to >>>>>>> create what he wanted created. Behe's designer was obviously modifying >>>>>>> existing functional units, and putting them together to do different things. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [1] Even in regard to Behe's three specific claims, I have already >>>>>>>>>> given you a link to an article on the Biologos site that dismantles >>>>>>>>>> those claims and shows they don't stand up to scrutiny. Here it is >>>>>>>>>> again in case you missed it: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://biologos.org/common-questions/how-can-evolution-account-for-the-complexity-of-life-on-earth-today >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It doesn't matter. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It matters because you insist they are the same as Behe yet they >>>>>>>> outright reject his acclaims. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You know that it doesn't matter how bogus Behe's argument to support his >>>>>>> tweeking is. They are obviously not against his tweeking claims. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Everyone should know how bogus Behe's claims are by >>>>>>>>> now. He never could demonstrate that his type of IC systems exist in >>>>>>>>> nature. That doesn't mean that he was not a tweeker, and that these >>>>>>>>> guys are also not tweekers. They just understand that Behe's method of >>>>>>>>> detecting miracles doesn't work. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> They are obviously claiming devine >>>>>>>>>>> intervention. Supernatural miracles are not natural mechanisms. You >>>>>>>>>>> have been deluding yourself and lying about what was claimed. You know >>>>>>>>>>> why you ran from the requoted material the first time and started lying. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You really need to get a grip on yourself; your paranoid fear of >>>>>>>>>>>> religious belief is on a par with the IDers' paranoid fear of science. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You need stop lying about the situation when you know that you were ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========