Path: ...!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!news.szaf.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.xcski.com!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: Martin Harran Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Evolutionary creationism Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 08:23:51 +0000 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 297 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: <0rp7tjpot0kabd8injclb45gcckr5qq98e@4ax.com> References: <80n5tjlmnh8ltdbqvq9u70v42if0b2p3m1@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="68165"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272 To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:NCryfjyTD7paBu7Gg8zUTPpoTP4= Return-Path: X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id 0DCED22978C; Fri, 14 Mar 2025 04:24:05 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3284229783 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2025 04:24:02 -0400 (EDT) by pi-dach.dorfdsl.de (8.18.1/8.18.1/Debian-6~bpo12+1) with ESMTPS id 52E8NsBE201321 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2025 09:23:54 +0100 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.eternal-september.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D7E2622AC for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2025 08:23:53 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: name/0D7E2622AC; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com id CFF1BDC01CA; Fri, 14 Mar 2025 09:23:52 +0100 (CET) X-Injection-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 09:23:52 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX1/IWxTitm1ty4MtrZdsDp24ZVat602SRo8= DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED,RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS,URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS, USER_IN_WELCOMELIST,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 smtp.eternal-september.org Bytes: 14027 On Thu, 13 Mar 2025 10:02:21 -0500, RonO wrote: >On 3/13/2025 8:23 AM, Martin Harran wrote: >> On Wed, 12 Mar 2025 11:43:35 -0500, RonO >> wrote: >> >>> On 3/12/2025 8:25 AM, Martin Harran wrote: >>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 13:06:43 -0500, RonO >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 3/11/2025 12:21 PM, Martin Harran wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 09:21:24 -0500, RonO >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/11/2025 5:06 AM, Martin Harran wrote: >>>>>>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2025 17:20:56 -0500, RonO >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> They are still not abiding by >>>>>>>>> Saint Augustine's admonishment about not using the Bible to make claims >>>>>>>>> about what we can determine for ourselves about nature, so my guess is >>>>>>>>> that their efforts can still fail to represent nature accurately >>>>>>>>> depending on how consistent with the Bible that they want to be. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> They are NOT in any way contradicting Saint Augustine's admonishment, >>>>>>>> they are following it perfectly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you think differently then like MarkE, you haven't properly grasped >>>>>>>> the meaning of what St Augustine meant. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They are trying to force biological evolution into conforming with their >>>>>>> Biblical interpretation. As such what are they missing about biological >>>>>>> evolution? Some of them are denying that natural mechanisms were >>>>>>> involved in some of that evolution. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please give an example of that. >>>> ? >>>> >>>>> >>>>> You SNIPed it out. >> >>>> >>>> There is nothing in what I snipped that shows anyone denying that >>>> natural mechanisms were involved in evolution. On the contrary, as >>>> quoted by you from their website, they define one of their core values >>>> as affirming the established findings of modern science. Are you >>>> calling them liars? >>> >>> That obviously is not true. Did you actually read what you snipped out? >>> What were their other core values? >> >> >> Here is exactly what you posted from their site earlier:: >> >> ==================================== >> >> QUOTE: >> Evolutionary Creation (EC) is a Christian position on origins. It >> takes >> the Bible seriously as the inspired and authoritative word of God, and >> it takes science seriously as a way of understanding the world God has >> made. EC includes two basic ideas. First, that God created all things, >> including human beings in his own image. Second, that evolution is the >> best scientific explanation we currently have for the diversity and >> similarities of all life on Earth. >> END QUOTE: >> >> QUOTE: >> The Identity of BioLogos >> Core Values >> Christ-centered Faith - We embrace the historical Christian faith, >> upholding the authority and inspiration of the Bible. >> >> Rigorous Science - We affirm the established findings of modern >> science, >> celebrating the wonders of God's creation. >> >> Gracious Dialogue - We strive for humble and thoughtful dialogue with >> those who hold other views, speaking the truth in love. >> END QUOTE: >> >> =============================================== >> >> Where in that are they are denying that natural mechanisms were >> involved in some of that evolution? > >They are like Behe and claiming that their god is needed to do a >specific thing that they claim the Bible tells them so. > >What do you not get? The reasoning is no different from Behe claiming >that some god is needed to create the flagellum. > > >> >>> They obviously have other feelings >>> about what are not "established findings of modern science." >> >> So what does it matter what they think about things outside of >> science, how is that contradicting science? > >They are claiming that their understanding of science can be made to >conform to their literal interpretations of the Bible. It is the same >claim that the ID perps make except they agree that biological evolution >is a fact of nature. Some of them still think like Behe. > >> >>> Not only >>> that, but as I indicated there are somethings about evolution that have >>> not been established because they claim to be tweekers like Behe, and >>> their god has been tweeking things in order to make humans into his own >>> image. >> >> I'm still waiting for an example of those tweekers. And why do you >> keep bringing Behe into it? He has nothing to do with Biologos or they >> with him. They actually have a lengthy article about his "Darwin's >> Black Box" book where they go through his arguments one by one and >> show how they don't stand up. > >How do you expect god to have made man in his own image without >tweeking? They likely even differ in what they think image means. > > >> >> https://biologos.org/common-questions/how-can-evolution-account-for-the-complexity-of-life-on-earth-today >> >> >> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> The example was in their description of what they >>>>> believed. They believe that the Bible is the "inspired and >>>>> authroitative word of God" and "First, that God created all things, >>>>> including human beings in his own image.". You have to read their web >>>>> site to learn that some of them are tweekers that claim that their god >>>>> was involved in guiding the evolution of life on earth. >>>> >>>> I have read their web site and I see nothing anywhere about forcing >>>> biological evolution into conforming with their >>>> Biblical interpretation. Feel free to point it out if I have missed >>>> it. >>> >>> You must have missed the part about tweekers, >> >> It's a big site and I can't find anything about tweekers. Please quote >> what they actually say or at least point me to the actual part of the >> site where they say it. > > From the link that I originally put up: > ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========