Path: ...!news.roellig-ltd.de!open-news-network.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.szaf.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: RonO Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Observe_the_trend=2E_It=E2=80=99s_happening=2E_Give?= =?UTF-8?Q?_it_time=2E?= Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2025 12:15:46 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 938 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: References: Reply-To: rokimoto557@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="28551"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:3Jkflce9sPV2pF1VPuPajPked7o= Return-Path: X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id 9ACB022978C; Mon, 10 Mar 2025 13:16:02 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 213AA229783 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2025 13:16:00 -0400 (EDT) by moderators.individual.net (Exim 4.98) for talk-origins@moderators.isc.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (envelope-from ) id 1trgjJ-00000003nkQ-27xk; Mon, 10 Mar 2025 18:15:53 +0100 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.eternal-september.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE330622A7 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2025 17:15:49 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: name/CE330622A7; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com id A121CDC01CA; Mon, 10 Mar 2025 18:15:49 +0100 (CET) X-Injection-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2025 18:15:49 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX19WekzoedeoBCbMZeH1Ajkq04aJPojd6O4= In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_REPLYTO, FREEMAIL_REPLYTO_END_DIGIT,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED,RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS,URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS, USER_IN_WELCOMELIST,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 smtp.eternal-september.org Bytes: 56240 On 3/10/2025 6:57 AM, MarkE wrote: > On 10/03/2025 2:16 am, RonO wrote: >> On 3/9/2025 12:56 AM, MarkE wrote: >>> On 9/03/2025 3:59 am, RonO wrote: >>>> On 3/7/2025 9:18 PM, MarkE wrote: >>>>> On 7/03/2025 1:06 am, RonO wrote: >>>>>> On 3/5/2025 9:24 PM, MarkE wrote: >>>>>>> On 6/03/2025 3:48 am, RonO wrote: >>>>>>>> You need to better cite your sources so that it is easier to >>>>>>>> look them up. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Appreciate your engagement and detailed detailed content. Don't >>>>>>> appreciate your rudeness and oversimplified black-and-white >>>>>>> stance, but we live with these. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dishonesty is not the best policy.  The good lie for god was made >>>>>> up to attack religious belief.  It was never meant to be used to >>>>>> support your religious beliefs.  The ID perps may live by the good >>>>>> lie for god adage, but it is not anything that you want to be >>>>>> involved with in the gray areas of reality that you want to >>>>>> believe exist.  Your gray areas no longer exist.  They haven't >>>>>> existed since the bait and switch started to go down, and the ID >>>>>> perps gave up and decided to just go with the obfuscation and >>>>>> denial for denial purposes.  It is just a fact that the ID >>>>>> creationist scam has just been used as bait for the last 23 years. >>>>>> What you keep trying to support is the use of this junk as bait. >>>>>> You may believe that these types of arguments are leading >>>>>> somewhere that you want to go, but you already understand that >>>>>> they never will.  You do realize that your origin of life denial >>>>>> is not Biblical, but you still persist in going with the gap >>>>>> denial. Gap denial is all the ID scam ever was, and the switch >>>>>> scam is just obfuscation and denial where they do not mention that >>>>>> ID nor creationism ever existed.  It is just obfuscation and >>>>>> denial meant to keep the kids as ignorant as possible because they >>>>>> can't tell them why they are being lied to. That is their current >>>>>> means to continue their original Wedge political mission. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is no existing ID "science" that, if they ever do validate >>>>>> any of it, will support their Wedge mission.  If Behe ever finds >>>>>> his three neutral mutations that were needed to evolve the >>>>>> flagellum over a billion years ago the ID perps would lose most of >>>>>> their financial and political support.  The vast majority of >>>>>> creationists that compose their "Big Tent" are YEC.  Any valid ID >>>>>> science would just be more science for them to deny.  This is why >>>>>> Nelson has always told the rubes that they do not have any ID >>>>>> science at this time, but that they are just working on producing >>>>>> some.  About the last thing that Nelson wants to happen would be >>>>>> if Meyer ever was able to demonstrate design during the Cambrian >>>>>> explosion over half a billion years ago. Nelson is YEC and he >>>>>> would have never joined up for the ID perp's Wedge political >>>>>> mission if the other ID perps had, had any valid ID science. >>>>> >>>>> All human activity has political dimensions. None of us can claim >>>>> unbiased objectivity. As I've conceded previously, ID has had >>>>> political intent, such as the Wedge strategy (I'm not a fan). This >>>>> is not automatically wrong though - Darwinists do the same thing, >>>>> e.g. Dawkins and friends promoting atheism. >>>> >>>> The Atheists aren't allowed to teach their atheistic claims in the >>>> public schools either.  The ID scam has always been a religious >>>> political scam.  They may have been able to fool a few scientists in >>>> the beginning, but that ended with the start of the bait and switch >>>> scam. After that everyone left at the Discovery institute was just a >>>> perp perpetrating the bait and switch, and anyone that still >>>> supported the scam was just an IDiotic creationist rube. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Is all ID only "bait and switch", "no science", "gap denial", >>>>> "IDiots and perps" and "scam, obfuscation and denial"? (Did I miss >>>>> any?) From my assessment over decades and careful consideration of >>>>> its leading proponents' writing and speaking, I think definitely >>>>> not, despite its shortcomings. So I suggest we agree to disagree on >>>>> this. >>>> >>>> Nelson understood that, that was all IDiocy ever was or he would not >>>> have signed up for the Wedge mission.  If the other ID perps really >>>> did have any valid science supporting the ID scam Nelson would never >>>> have joined because it would just have been more science for Nelson >>>> to deny. >>>> >>>> Do you deny that the switch scam is just obfuscation and denial >>>> without mentioning creationism nor the ID scam?  The ID perps just >>>> had an article up on Wells being fondly remembered.  Wells' book >>>> (Icons of Evolution) was not ID science, but obfuscation and denial >>>> of existing science.  The book was used by the Ohio IDiots to create >>>> the first switch scam model lesson plan, and the creationists >>>> screwed up by including the Wellsian lie of "no moths on tree >>>> trunks" and including creationist web links in the lesson plan. >>>> That was the extent of their switch scam scholarship. >>>> >>>> The leading proponents of the ID scam decided 23 years ago to only >>>> use ID as bait.  They all understood that they never had the ID >>>> science to teach in the public schools, and decided that using ID as >>>> bait was the only way forward for their Wedge religious political >>>> goals.  All of them agreed to do this because not one of them >>>> objected, nor resigned from the Discovery Institute when they >>>> decided to start running the bait and switch.  Phillip Johnson was >>>> the only ID perp to "retire" a month after the bait and switch >>>> started to go down.  The previous month Johnson had supported >>>> teaching ID in Ohio. The claim is that Phillip Johnson never >>>> understood what science actually is.  He was likely fooled by the >>>> other ID perps.  Johnson came back and supported teaching ID in >>>> Dover along with then Senator Santorum.  The ID perp bait and switch >>>> attempt had failed and the Dover creationist rubes tried to teach ID >>>> anyway.  The ID perps were able to run the bait and switch on >>>> Santorum and he flip flopped on the issue during his reelection >>>> campaign and came out against teaching ID in the Dover public >>>> schools.  His Republican opponents in the primary questioned >>>> Santorum's religious convictions.  Santorum was not reelected. >>>> Phillip Johnson would not flip flop and claimed that ID would >>>> prevail on the court room steps.  Johnson sat in court every day of >>>> testimony, and decided that the ID science had never existed. >>>> >>>> http://web.archive.org/web/20070609131601/http:// >>>> sciencereview.berkeley.edu/articles.php?issue=10&article=evolution >>>> >>>> QUOTE: >>>> I also don’t think that there is really a theory of intelligent design >>>> at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative to the >>>> Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might contain, a fully >>>> worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design theory that’s >>>> comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job of the scientific >>>> people that we have affiliated with the movement. Some of them are >>>> quite >>>> convinced that it’s doable, but that’s for them to prove…No product is >>>> ready for competition in the educational world. >>>> END QUOTE: >>>> >>>> QUOTE: >>>> For his part, Johnson agrees: “I think the fat lady has sung for any >>>> efforts to change the approach in the public schools…the courts are >>>> just >>>> not going to allow it. They never have. The efforts to change things in >>>> the public schools generate more powerful opposition than accomplish >>>> anything…I don’t think that means the end of the issue at all.” “In >>>> some >>>> respects,” he later goes on, “I’m almost relieved, and glad. I think >>>> the >>>> issue is properly settled. It’s clear to me now that the public schools >>>> are not going to change their line in my lifetime. >>>> END QUOTE: >>>> ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========