Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1 Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2025 17:10:00 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 88 Message-ID: References: <3ade9e84224ba9b99c7363e0e9b69181804b7daa@i2pn2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2025 00:10:02 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="36d3ab42b456229d7015555efad62f36"; logging-data="1470423"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+ypt69pErs23RqvR8qYJM2" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:2gZjBQMIvAO8KMEEusGDEjGFUJ8= In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250331-6, 3/31/2025), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Bytes: 5728 On 3/31/2025 2:15 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: > Op 31.mrt.2025 om 20:13 schreef olcott: >> On 3/31/2025 3:26 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>> Op 30.mrt.2025 om 22:32 schreef olcott: >>>> On 3/30/2025 1:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>> On 3/30/25 2:27 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 3/30/2025 3:12 AM, joes wrote: >>>>>>> Am Sat, 29 Mar 2025 16:46:26 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:14 PM, dbush wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 4:01 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We can know that when this adapted UTM simulates a finite >>>>>>>>>> number of >>>>>>>>>> steps of its input that this finite number of steps were >>>>>>>>>> simulated >>>>>>>>>> correctly. >>>>>>>>> And therefore does not do a correct UTM simulation that matches >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> behavior of the direct execution as it is incomplete. >>>>>>>> It is dishonest to expect non-terminating inputs to complete. >>>>>>> A complete simulation of a nonterminating input doesn't halt. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2) changing the input is not allowed >>>>>>>>>> The input is unchanged. There never was any indication that >>>>>>>>>> the input >>>>>>>>>> was in any way changed. >>>>>>>>> False, if the starting function calls UTM and UTM changes, you're >>>>>>>>> changing the input. >>>>>>>> When UTM1 is a UTM that has been adapted to only simulate a finite >>>>>>>> number of steps >>>>>>> So not an UTM. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and input D calls UTM1 then the behavior of D simulated >>>>>>>> by UTM1 never reaches its final halt state. >>>>>>>> When D is simulated by ordinary UTM2 that D does not call Then D >>>>>>>> reaches >>>>>>>> its final halt state. >>>>>>> Doesn't matter if it calls it, but if the UTM halts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Changing the input is not allowed. >>>>>>>> I never changed the input. D always calls UTM1. >>>>>>>> thus is the same input to UTM1 as it is to UTM2. >>>>>>> You changed UTM1, which is part of the input D. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> UTM1 simulates D that calls UTM1 >>>>>> simulated D NEVER reaches final halt state >>>>>> >>>>>> UTM2 simulates D that calls UTM1 >>>>>> simulated D ALWAYS reaches final halt state >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Only because UTM1 isn't actually a UTM, but a LIE since it only >>>>> does a partial simulation, not a complete as REQURIED by the >>>>> definition of a UTM. >>>>> >>>> >>>> _DDD() >>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping >>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping >>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) >>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04 >>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp >>>> [00002183] c3         ret >>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183] >>>> >>>> DDD EMULATED BY HHH DOES SPECIFY THAT IT >>>> CANNOT POSSIBLY REACH ITS OWN FINAL HALT STATE. >>>> >>>> THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS AND ANYONE THAT DISAGREES >>>> IS A DAMNED LIAR OR STUPID. >>>> >>> But we all agree that HHH fails to reach the end of the simulation of >>> this finite recursion. An end that exists as proven by direct >>> execution and world class simulators. Why repeating this agreement as >>> if someone denies it? >> >> If you want me to respond to any other your replies >> you have to quit playing trollish head games. > So agreeing with you is playing trollish head games? > That explains what you are doing. Dishonestly twisting my words is not agreement. -- Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer