Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!news.quux.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: Halting Problem: What Constitutes Pathological Input Date: Wed, 7 May 2025 21:53:06 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 201 Message-ID: References:

MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Thu, 08 May 2025 04:53:07 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="f36da193996cadd52a214445b52881fc"; logging-data="1599577"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/T9kOb1HYguiqKU/0LfoMc" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:uE7oSem+7pmRLSLk/epV/PwzGnw= Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus-Status: Clean In-Reply-To: X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250507-4, 5/7/2025), Outbound message Bytes: 11086 On 5/7/2025 9:46 PM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 5/7/25 12:25 PM, olcott wrote: >> On 5/7/2025 10:44 AM, Mike Terry wrote: >>> On 07/05/2025 04:11, olcott wrote: >>>> On 5/6/2025 9:53 PM, Mike Terry wrote: >>>>> On 07/05/2025 00:11, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 5/6/2025 5:49 PM, Mike Terry wrote: >>>>>>> On 06/05/2025 21:25, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 2:35 PM, dbush wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 2:47 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 7:14 AM, dbush wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 1:54 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2025 12:49 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/05/2025 00:29, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is the problem incorrect specification that creates >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the contradiction. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Not at all. The contradiction arises from the fact that it >>>>>>>>>>>>> is not possible to construct a universal decider. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone here insists that functions computed >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by models of computation can ignore inputs and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> base their output on something else. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think anyone's saying that. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you don't read so well. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What are the exact steps for DD to be emulated by HHH >>>>>>>>>>>> according to the semantics of the x86 language? >>>>>>>>>>>> *Only an execution trace will do* >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The exact same steps for DD to be emulated by UTM. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _DD() >>>>>>>>>> [00002133] 55 push ebp ; housekeeping >>>>>>>>>> [00002134] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; housekeeping >>>>>>>>>> [00002136] 51 push ecx ; make space for local >>>>>>>>>> [00002137] 6833210000 push 00002133 ; push DD >>>>>>>>>> [0000213c] e882f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DD) >>>>>>>>>> [00002141] 83c404 add esp,+04 >>>>>>>>>> [00002144] 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax >>>>>>>>>> [00002147] 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00 >>>>>>>>>> [0000214b] 7402 jz 0000214f >>>>>>>>>> [0000214d] ebfe jmp 0000214d >>>>>>>>>> [0000214f] 8b45fc mov eax,[ebp-04] >>>>>>>>>> [00002152] 8be5 mov esp,ebp >>>>>>>>>> [00002154] 5d pop ebp >>>>>>>>>> [00002155] c3 ret >>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0035) [00002155] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Machine address by machine address specifics >>>>>>>>>> that you know that you cannot provide because >>>>>>>>>> you know that you are wrong. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> HHH and UTM emulate DD exactly the same up until the point that >>>>>>>>> HHH aborts, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When you trace through the actual steps you >>>>>>>> will see that this is counter-factual. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, it is exactly right. Remember, I posted a comparison of the >>>>>>> two traces side by side some time ago, and they were indeed >>>>>>> IDENTICAL line for line up to the point where HHH decided to >>>>>>> discontinue simulating. >>>>>> >>>>>> That is counter-factual. >>>>> >>>>> Dude! :/ I posted the comparison and the traces were the same up >>>>> to the point where HHH discontinued the simulation. How can it be >>>>> "counter-factual"? >>>>> >>>> >>>> HHH1(DD) the call from DD to HHH(DD) returns. >>>> HHH(DD) the call from DD to HHH(DD) cannot possibly return. >>>> >>>> A call that returns and a call that cannot possibly >>>> return *are not exactly the same thing* >>> >>> You need to read what posters actually say. I said the traces were >>> the same up to the point where HHH stops simulating. >> >> THAT IS COUNTER-FACTUAL. >> HHH continues to emulate DD long after their paths diverge. >> >> HHH1 only emulates DD once. >> HHH emulates DD once and then emulates itself emulating DD. >> >>> I didn't say anything about calls that return or do not return >>> "being the same thing" and none of what you relates to whether what I >>> said was correct. >>> >>> Look, if you insist the traces are not the same up to the point where >>> HHH stops simulating, show the two traces and we'll just look and >>> see! Simples. >>> >> >> HHH1(DD) emulates DD once. >> HHH(DD) emulates DD once and then emulates itself emulating DD. >> >> machine stack stack machine assembly >> address address data code language >> ======== ======== ======== ============== ============= >> [000021be][00103872][00000000] 55 push ebp >> [000021bf][00103872][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp >> [000021c1][0010386e][0000213e] 683e210000 push 0000213e // push DD >> [000021c6][0010386a][000021cb] e853f3ffff call 0000151e // call HHH1 >> New slave_stack at:103916 > > > **ERROR** > > Not a correct Emulaton of the call instruction, > > You are just PROVING that you are nothing but a totally ignorant > pathological lying idiot that doesn't understand what they are talking > about. > >> >> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:11391e >> [0000213e][0011390e][00113912] 55 push ebp >> [0000213f][0011390e][00113912] 8bec mov ebp,esp >> [00002141][0011390a][00103916] 51 push ecx >> [00002142][00113906][0000213e] 683e210000 push 0000213e // push DD >> [00002147][00113902][0000214c] e8a2f4ffff call 000015ee // call HHH >> New slave_stack at:14e33e >> >> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:15e346 >> [0000213e][0015e336][0015e33a] 55 push ebp >> [0000213f][0015e336][0015e33a] 8bec mov ebp,esp >> [00002141][0015e332][0014e33e] 51 push ecx >> [00002142][0015e32e][0000213e] 683e210000 push 0000213e // push DD >> [00002147][0015e32a][0000214c] e8a2f4ffff call 000015ee // call HHH >> New slave_stack at:198d66 >> [0000213e][001a8d5e][001a8d62] 55 push ebp >> [0000213f][001a8d5e][001a8d62] 8bec mov ebp,esp >> [00002141][001a8d5a][00198d66] 51 push ecx >> [00002142][001a8d56][0000213e] 683e210000 push 0000213e >> [00002147][001a8d52][0000214c] e8a2f4ffff call 000015ee >> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped >> >> [0000214c][0011390a][00103916] 83c404 add esp,+04 >> [0000214f][0011390a][00000000] 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax >> [00002152][0011390a][00000000] 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00 >> [00002156][0011390a][00000000] 7402 jz 0000215a >> [0000215a][0011390a][00000000] 8b45fc mov eax,[ebp-04] >> [0000215d][0011390e][00113912] 8be5 mov esp,ebp >> [0000215f][00113912][000015d3] 5d pop ebp >> [00002160][00113916][0003a980] c3 ret >> [000021cb][00103872][00000000] 83c404 add esp,+04 >> [000021ce][0010386e][00000001] 50 push eax >> [000021cf][0010386a][0000075f] 685f070000 push 0000075f >> [000021d4][0010386a][0000075f] e8a5e5ffff call 0000077e >> Input_Halts = 1 >> [000021d9][00103872][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08 ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========