Path: ...!news.misty.com!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!news.nk.ca!rocksolid2!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery) Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems Subject: Re: NastyGoon lifts a line Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 19:10:19 +0000 Organization: novaBBS Message-ID: <7fb5e05b512887bd31d62fe4144db3ca@www.novabbs.com> References: <2a4af4ec834eef3f54981b740292339e@www.novabbs.com> <43d39b4a1c89d7225266eba011c12000@www.novabbs.com> <07ab66c1c01e208a4fc1ab071e658db5@www.novabbs.com> <9311088ba61ebc6586521a7b24f47801@www.novabbs.com> <36c080c524f1293340f607e197eddacf@www.novabbs.com> <912c53b9143f2a3aca65c832a9a70fb5@www.novabbs.com> <47fe3e01d087339598a76abfd6cc7059@www.novabbs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="982734"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="Vf9CM7g99yqfGvzEHTw0bhrjcIfvzYBBhUuRma0rLuQ"; User-Agent: Rocksolid Light X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 X-Rslight-Site: $2y$10$ZZV48SIBSvGJVk1mZFJ9EecmpCxOWuwtrGsCUuyLjMnlZWAb95hvS X-Rslight-Posting-User: acd0b3e3614eaa6f47211734e4cbca3bfd42bebc Bytes: 14818 Lines: 296 On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 18:51:48 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: > On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 15:51:41 +0000, HarryLime wrote: >> On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 13:37:42 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: >>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 4:00:34 +0000, HarryLime wrote: >>>> On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 23:55:05 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: >>>>> On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 16:44:20 +0000, HarryLime wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 5:38:14 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: >>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 1:38:39 +0000, W.Dockery wrote: > >>>> Since you refuse to reprint the poem, or provide a link to it, you can't >>>> fault me for basing my reading on a single, out of context line. >>> >>> Actually, HarryLiar, we're now talking about my reading of the line - >>> "the unread newspapers represent all the things one doesn't get to do in >>> a day, all the unfinished business that just keeps piling up and piling >>> up" and your response" which I called a "great metaphor" and your >>> response: "Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile. [Please note the >>> difference >>> between "simile" and "metaphor."] >>> >>> Using "the days" to represent "unfinished business" is not a simile. >>> It's symbolism, or (if you'd like to quibble) metonymy. >> >> I believe that I first learned about similes in the 3rd Grade. A simile >> was defined as a comparison between two seemingly different things (A is >> like B). > >> I've never had any interest in labeling the various forms, styles, >> components, etc., of poetry. > >> I know that PJR and Horatio used to do >> that quite a bit, and that you were always eager to join in -- only to >> be ignored. It always struck me as an exercise in pointlessness. >> Poetry isn't about the labels one can attach to it, or the categories >> one can pigeonhole it into. > > So, unless you're just trolling again, why did you bring it up here? > >> NancyGene's line is great regardless of whether it's a simile, metaphor, >> or an example of symbolism. > >>>>>> As I previously explained to you, the newspapers in NancyGene's simile >>>>>> represent "Yesterdays," or *Memories.* >>>>> >>>>> That is also not a simile. If NastyGoon had said in the poem "Yesterdays >>>>> are like memories" that would be have been a simile, but they did not. >>>>> In your reading, they are also using a different literary device. >>>> >>>> And just what literary device is that? >>> >>> "Symbolism" sounds good to me. >> >> It doesn't to me. > > Well, I did offer you another option: "metonymy". > >> A symbol is the substitution of one thing for another. Using >> "Yesterdays" to represent "Memories" is closer to being a symbol (it's >> actually a metaphor) than "Yesterdays... (are) like ... read newspapers" >> (which I still think is a simile). > > Now this is cute; you began by denying that Creeley's use (in my > interpretation) of "The Days" that are piling up to "unfinished > business" that piles up was a "metaphor" (and claimed it was a simile. > Now you're insisting that NG's use of > "Yesterdays" (in your interpretation) to represent "memories" *is* a > 'metaphor. You're doing exactly the same thing you accused me of. Either Harry Lime is confused or he's trying to confuse you and the audience. >>>>> So you're saying that using "Yesterdays" to mean "memories" makes sense; >>>>> but we're discussing their simile, not that literary device. >>>> >>>> Are you now going to prattle on about some unnamed literary device >>>> (which you have no intention of identifying)? >>> >>> I just identified it, in both poems, HarryLiar. >> >> How can you accuse me of lying it my previous post, when you just >> identified it (incorrectly, IMHO) in this one? > > I didn't accuse you of "lying it" in your previous post. "HarryLiar" is > just your new nickname (since you didn't like "Lime sock"). If I accuse > you of lying, I'll call you Lying Michael (since that's the search term > for your lies that I'm now using so those can be found. Where's the best place to search Usenet newsgroup archives now, in your opinion, George? I assume the Google Groups archives are now longer up to date. >>> Now, as for their >>> similes, both are virtually identical: both compare days ("The days" in >>> one, "Yesterdays" in the other) to newspapers {"unread" in one, "read" >>> in the other). >> >> But the days are used to represent *different things* in each. >> >> Yesterdays = Memories vs Days = Increments of Time. > >> Are you really so dense as to be incapable of seeing past the specific >> words to recognize their metaphorical (or, if you must, symbolic) >> meanings? > > HarryLIar, judging by what you think Creeley meant by "The days", you > seem to be the one incapable of recognizing that he was using it had a > metaphorical meaning. (I can now call it "metaphor" even though you > continue to insist that "not a metaphor.") Harry Lime, as always, just makes it up as he goes along. aka lies and misrepresentations. >>>>>> The speaker in >>>>>> NancyGene's poem feels as if they are unable to escape from their >>>>>> memories, so the *read* newspapers keep piling up -- becoming more >>>>>> oppressive with each passing day. >>>>> >>>>> Which is not a good simile, as I said, because "read newspapers" do not >>>>> normally stack up that way. >>>> >>>> Technically, newspapers don't stack up stack up any way by themselves; >>>> they are stacked up by others. >>> >>> That's a stupid quibble; of course stacks of newspapers are made by >>> people. Normally, people do not stack up the newspapers they've already >>> read. >> >> It is neither stupid, nor quibbling, George. I was demonstrating how one >> can change the meaning of a sentence by examining it out of context >> (something which you do in practically every post). > >> According to your >> sentence, the newspapers have taken on a life of their own and are >> capable of movement (piling themselves in stacks). > > No, that's simply your interpretation of the sentence. It actually says > nothing about the newspapers taking on a life of their own and moving > anywhere. > >> If you don't like it, don't do it. > >>>> But we are discussing a line of poetry, a literary form that deals in >>>> simile, symbol, and metaphor -- so why should it matter how you think >>>> they stack themselves in real life? >>> >>> If in a poem you're trying to use a simile to show how the [d]ays "pile >>> up" or stack up, you should try to use a vehicle that does normally >>> "pile up" (like Creeley's "unread newspapers", not one that does not >>> normally "stack up" (like "read newspapers"). That should be clear >>> enough to anyone who isn't just >>> trying to play the peabrain. >> >> See my comments below. While "unread newspapers" get stacked up because >> the subscriber hasn't had time to read them, "read newspapers" get >> stacked up when the subscriber is suffering from clinical depression -- >> which is what NancyGene's poem is about. > >>>>>- once they're read, they're thrown away. >>>> >>>> Under normal circumstances, yes. >>> >>> So a reader's first thought would be that the line makes no sense. >>> >>>> However, when someone is suffering from clinical depression, they often >>>> do not bother taking out their trash. As previously noted, my Great >>>> Aunt who suffered from depression stacked all of her read newspapers and >>>> magazines on her front porch. The stacks reached up to the ceiling, and >>>> covered the entire porch, barely allowing passage to her door. >>> >>> Are you saying that a perceptive reader would conclude that NastyGoon's >>> speaker is suffering from "clinical depression"? Are you saying that's >>> what you concluded on the basis of one line? I did not. >> >> I can't remember if I picked that up from the first line, or further >> into the poem. I certainly recognized it as the theme *during* my >> initial reading. ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========