Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery) Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems Subject: Re: The Lime sock on Allen Ginsberg and NAMBLA Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 19:38:47 +0000 Organization: novaBBS Message-ID: <4ca3ae6cdce31443042db0bbb8ab558e@www.novabbs.com> References: <31c157534183ddc0956f4b7fafb50192@www.novabbs.com> <6e4ed674ed08f722c584a5998fc79d47@www.novabbs.com> <46244097a3e98abd14e5a0deb16673bc@www.novabbs.com> <094f0596705ad41062d690b9ca2da260@www.novabbs.com> <4326b4e29f6185688ebf65b40fe0c8c6@www.novabbs.com> <192e0c208f0feca7bae8da8828f45662@www.novabbs.com> <981479e216c2822b13fe0fbc65f1a7f7@www.novabbs.com> <22f68966ce98f7982574bc3ea2fc8277@www.novabbs.com> <3f4a0a90795e47ec71faa6505b8f7f87@www.novabbs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="1296034"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="Vf9CM7g99yqfGvzEHTw0bhrjcIfvzYBBhUuRma0rLuQ"; User-Agent: Rocksolid Light X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 X-Rslight-Site: $2y$10$WVssond2pg1HUwSFot3GSunP86oz/f6gtMWJ0uZSRfC5EgDnckOHK X-Rslight-Posting-User: acd0b3e3614eaa6f47211734e4cbca3bfd42bebc Bytes: 7075 Lines: 161 HarryLime wrote: > Will Dockery wrote: > >>>>>>> I am publishing an AAPC poetry journal featuring award-winning poets. >>>>>> >>>>>> Can you say vanity press? >>>>> >>>>> A vanity press charges a "reading" or "submission" fee. >>>> >>>> Do you pay in contributors copies? >>> >>> Almost. I don't receive any money for them. They're sold at cost. Sure sounds like vanity press to me. >> So... no. >> >>>>>>>>> After Jim and Stephan became engaged in a prolonged flamewar, both on >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> off the Sampler, the second thing you did was start flooding the group >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> a nasty, libelous document that NG had written. > >>>>>> Oh yes, the last resort, flood the newsgroup with your lies and >>>>>> misrepresentations. > >>>> George Dance saw it differently. > >>>>>>>> Grim times for the poetry newsgroup indeed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pick didn't belong here. >>>>>> >>>>>> There's no guidelines on who we "allow" to be here. >>>>>> >>>> Stephan Pickering knew poetry and made many good poetry posts. >>>> >>>> Pretty good poetry, as I recall. >>>> >>>> Stephan Pickering has written some interesting poems over the >>>>>> years. > >>>>>>>>> The third thing you did, a month or so of that, when Jim and Stephan >>>>>>>>> were thoroughly >>>>>>>>> engaged with each other, you went deep diving outside the group for >>>>>>>>> information on NAMBLA, and found a quotation from Allan Ginsberg >>>>>>>>> ("I have never had sex with anyone under 15" >>>> >>>> The youngest sex partner Allen Ginsberg is known to have was the 18-19 >>>> year old man > >> Can you link to these alleged sources? > >> And later it turns out the youngest sex partner Allen Ginsberg is known >> to have was an 18-19 year old man. An interview with the young man was reposted elsewhere on the poetry newsgroups. >> Can you link to any real evidence of this? > > See above. Don you have a link? >>>> No, he was 18 and then turned 19. >>>> >>>>> It depends on the source. >> >> Unless something new has surfaced, there's zero evidence. > > IIRC, Ginsberg tacitly admitted it in one or more interviews. Non that I've ever read, but I haven't read every interview with Allen Ginsberg. Can you post the link to that interview? >>>> There's an interview with the fellow, I don't remember his name right >>>> now. The interview was reposted in another thread, the person was 18-19 years old and he was the one who pursued Allen Ginsberg, not the other way around. >>>> posting here, calling Ginsberg a "pedophile" (or predator); >> >> Which, from the evidence, wasn't true, as shown above. >> >> Again, more on this later. > >>> and then >>> when others objected to that (like Stephan, Will, or myself), you began >>> calling those people "pedophiles" as well. >>> >>> That's when the bullshit from Pendragon began to get heavy. > >>> Most likely Jim had condemned Ginsberg as >>> a child molester > >> Which wasn't actually true, by all evidence. >> >> Not statements but actual evidence. >> >> I looked twenty years ago and found no actual evidence, more on this >> later. > >>>>> Ginsberg was a supporter and member of the North American Man/Boy Love >>>>> Association (NAMBLA), a pedophilia and pederasty advocacy organization >>>>> in the United States that works to abolish age of consent laws and >>>>> legalize sexual relations between adults and children.[124][citation >>>>> needed] Saying that he joined the organization "in defense of free >>>>> speech",[125] Ginsberg stated: "Attacks on NAMBLA stink of politics, >>>>> witchhunting for profit, humorlessness, vanity, anger and ignorance ... >>>>> I'm a member of NAMBLA because I love boys too—everybody does, who has a >>>>> little humanity".[126] In 1994, Ginsberg appeared in a documentary on >>>>> NAMBLA called Chicken Hawk: Men Who Love Boys (playing on the gay male >>>>> slang term 'chickenhawk'), in which he read a "graphic ode to >>>>> youth".[124] He read his poem "Sweet Boy, Gimme Yr Ass" from the book >>>>> Mind Breaths.[127] >> >> More on this later, see below. > >>> In her 2002 book Heartbreak, Andrea Dworkin claimed Ginsberg had >>> ulterior motives > >> There was a bitter feud between Ginsberg and this person, I don't >> remember the details but Dworkin was said to have no evidence that >> Ginsberg had actually made those statements. > >> I'll have to research this again, since I haven't read the details in >> over twenty years. > > The general consensus is that Ginsberg was openly gay, and openly > attracted to underage boys. Whether he actually had sex with them is > unknown The youngest known sex partner Allen Ginsberg had was 18-19 years old and the person stated in the interview that he pursued Allen Ginsberg, it wasn't Ginsberg's idea. >>> and Pickering (who worshipped Ginsberg) spazzed. > >> That is a fair summary of what I just said, though you left out that you >> (and Jim) >> were calling Stephan a child molester as well. No one appreciates being >> called names like that by cowardly trolls on the internet. >> >> Which led to Tit for Tat behavior over time. > >> At that point Pendragon and Senetto were trying any dirty trick to drive >> Stephan Pickering away from this newsgroup. >> >> And so it goes. >> >> I doubt you'll argue this, Pendragon, since you once bragged about doing >> this in the 1950s music group. > > I bragged about torturing the living bejeezus out of PhillyGuy for fun > and amusement. I never made up anything to win an argument there. In what way did you "torture" this Philly Guy?