Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.quux.org!news.nk.ca!rocksolid2!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery) Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems Subject: Re: My Father's House / gjd (for new comments) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 19:57:35 +0000 Organization: novaBBS Message-ID: <3ca9b22c684cb36c51ebd3835eb32e19@www.novabbs.com> References: <97db0c3aeb33a7b97dc54cdfd5661e52@www.novabbs.com> <364e1f41f24b2570a2d6ce465ddb3e4d@www.novabbs.com> <4a4c22e8971494f4276397d499bef9f4@www.novabbs.com> <0aa2409a4d4492cb92192f0206f2b152@www.novabbs.com> <036005486e41eec5a19f04c9e88e1e48@www.novabbs.com> <1cc0df73d929b7ac9cd7a8c02d7b31a3@www.novabbs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="1609859"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="Vf9CM7g99yqfGvzEHTw0bhrjcIfvzYBBhUuRma0rLuQ"; User-Agent: Rocksolid Light X-Rslight-Site: $2y$10$S5V64qZrkP.PLH2MZL03RuEiFC2eY1Ky0V/NaNF5g3f6sBl4o4k4C X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 X-Rslight-Posting-User: acd0b3e3614eaa6f47211734e4cbca3bfd42bebc Bytes: 28602 Lines: 556 On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 8:50:21 +0000, HarryLime wrote: > On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 11:02:16 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: > >> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 0:44:06 +0000, HarryLime wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 17:11:19 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 18:28:12 +0000, HarryLime wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 14:12:44 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 20:15:36 +0000, HarryLime wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 19:31:54 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, 4 Feb 2025 11:29:25 +0000, W.Dockery wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> George J. Dance wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My Father's House >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is my father's house, although >>>>>>>>>> The man died thirteen years ago. >>>>>>>>>> They said it would be quite all right >>>>>>>>>> To take a drive to see it now. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks >>>>>>>>>> And built the whole thing (from a box), >>>>>>>>>> Toiling after each full day's work. >>>>>>>>>> I helped, though I was only six. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Look, here's the back door I would use >>>>>>>>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes >>>>>>>>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things >>>>>>>>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish, >>>>>>>>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish >>>>>>>>>> To be so many other places. >>>>>>>>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Outside, the garden that he grew >>>>>>>>>> Where I would work the summers through, >>>>>>>>>> While watching my friends run and play >>>>>>>>>> Mysterious games I never knew. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it, >>>>>>>>>> The one chair I was let to sit? >>>>>>>>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.) >>>>>>>>>> Which, the corner where boys were put? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room >>>>>>>>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb) >>>>>>>>>> After the meal, to make no noise, >>>>>>>>>> To read or play alone, and then >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night, >>>>>>>>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright, >>>>>>>>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down >>>>>>>>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire >>>>>>>>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there >>>>>>>>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high >>>>>>>>>> Its flames would light up all the air. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ~~ >>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance >>>>>>>>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Here it is, MFH. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for reposting this poem of mine, Will. While it's true that it >>>>>>>> has been discussed a lot over the years, it also true that at least one >>>>>>>> person wants to discuss it now; and this would be the appropriate place >>>>>>>> to move those comments, rather than leaving them scattered all over the >>>>>>>> group. So let's start with this one: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka >>>>>>>> "HarryLime" wrote: >>>>>>>>> You wrote a "mostly autobiographical" poem detailing the abuses you >>>>>>>>> suffered as a child, George. And you're demonstrating your pathological >>>>>>>>> obsession with lying in your trio of denials, listed above. >>>>>>>> https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=15801&group=rec.arts.poems >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> HarryLiar has manufactured yet another fake quote; I have never called >>>>>>>> this poem "mostly autobiographical" or autobiographical in many ways. I >>>>>>>> have distinctly told him in the past that, while some of the speaker's >>>>>>>> memories were based on my own childhood experiences, not all of them >>>>>>>> were; I was using them in a work of creative fiction, not an >>>>>>>> autobiography of any kind. So he lied and made up a fake quote to >>>>>>>> support his lie. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I haven't the time to go searching for the exact quote, but you had >>>>>>> initially maintained that it was "mostly autobiographical" or "mostly >>>>>>> based on your childhood," or similar words expressing the same thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you don't have time, get your NastyGoon to search for it. In this >>>>>> case I have to call your bullshit. You claimed the poem was >>>>>> "autobiographical", and I tried to explain to you the difference between >>>>>> creative literature and autobiography - repeatedly. You believe it's >>>>>> autobiographical because you said it was autobiographical, and for no >>>>>> other reason. >>>>> >>>>> George, George, George... no autobiography is 100% accurate. >>>> >>>> As I've told you before, I don't think the difference between creative >>>> literature and autobiography is merely one of "accuracy." The difference >>>> is that in the latter one is trying to be as accurate and comprehensive >>>> as possible: to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the >>>> truth. Whereas in the former, one is selectively recreating an >>>> experience, using experiences that reinforce the story. >>> >>> Which has little to no bearing on one's reading a poem as as >>> psychoanalytical analysis of its author. An autobiography would >>> invariably be colored by its author's emotional feelings, and >>> selectively limited by their choices as to what to include, and how to >>> present it if included. >> >> Df course a biographer is going to be selective; who would want to read >> a biography that included an account of every dump their subject took in >> his life? The difference is that a biographer limits (or should limit) >> what they include to what actually happened to the subject, while a >> creative work (which has a made-up subject (has no such restraint). > > You're trying to change the terms, in order to change the meanings, > George. > > How many times do I have to tell you that high school debate team > tactics are not going to work here? > > You have stated, repeatedly, that you poem was based for the most part > on your own childhood. The unnamed narrator may not be George Dance, > but the events he is describing in the flashback portion of the poem are > similar to your own childhood experiences. > > Your poem is, therefore, at least semi-autobiographical. > > A semi-autobiographical poem can still contain purely fictional elements > (such as the narrator's psychiatric care, his revisiting his childhood > home, etc.), but it is much more grounded in reality than your > description of "creative fiction," which "has a made-up subject" and "no > such restraint (as having to limit itself to what really happened to its > subject). > > >>> The only difference is that in an autobiography, the author is >>> (supposedly) attempting to be unbiased, where as in creative literature, >>> the author is allowing his biases to take center stage. >> >> No, that's not a difference. Biographies (including autobiographies) can >> reflect their author's prejudices; one wouldn't expect a biography of >> Hitler or Amin to be "unbiased" or try for equal balance. The >> difference, to repeat, is that a biographer is (or should be) limited to >> real, verifiable events - it's an account of what really happened - >> whereas a work of creative literature has no such restraint. > > But I am not calling your poem autobiographical, George. I am calling > it "semi-autobiographical." There is a difference between the two, as > well. An autobiographical poem would have to be based entirely on fact. > A semi-autobiographical poem would only have to be partially based on > fact. Since your poem is partially based on fact, it is a > semi-autobiographical work. > >>> Both provide >>> glimpses into the author as a person; and some would argue that creative >>> literature provides a deeper glimpse as it is allowing the reader to >>> share in the author's emotional responses to their experiences (whereas >>> the former is merely relating said experiences, with the cold, clinical >>> detachment of a reporter). >> >> Sure, every literary work provides some glimpse into the author. That >> does not mean that every literary work is a "biography" of someone. > > I haven't even so much as hinted that it would. > > I'm saying that any fictional work is going to be partially > *autobiographical.* "The Simple Man" is a fictional story that I wrote ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========