Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!news.nk.ca!rocksolid2!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hertz778@gmail.com (rhertz) Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity Subject: Re: ChatGPT: Momentum conservation idealization and the faikire of the Noether theorem, Date: Fri, 9 May 2025 22:45:42 +0000 Organization: novaBBS Message-ID: <1f6a83e8882a5dc175abd01cb6cfe2b9@www.novabbs.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="3862374"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="OjDMvaaXMeeN/7kNOPQl+dWI+zbnIp3mGAHMVhZ2e/A"; User-Agent: Rocksolid Light X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 X-Rslight-Site: $2y$10$jz7XBqyZAoBXSB.Z9oXC2.7EWDdTqwCiYdbgd4Y.9RWeuo/f3OdfG X-Rslight-Posting-User: 26080b4f8b9f153eb24ebbc1b47c4c36ee247939 Bytes: 22867 Lines: 440 Asking Grok: At the beginning of time nor momentum conservation neither energy conservation didn't exist (cosmological time t=0). How come these "laws" evolved from nothing WATCH GROK RETORTING TRYING TO DEFEND CLASSIC PHYSICS BY USING THEORIES BEYOND QUANTUM PHYSICS, WHICH ARE STILL BEING DEVELOPED (AND FAILING). GROK, AS WELL OTHER AI ENGINES CAN'T ADDRESS THIS TOPIC WITHOUT MIXING EVERY THEORY AVAILABLE TO DEFEND THESE TWO BASIC AND LOCAL LAWS. ENJOY. **************************************************** Can you tell me what theories about angular momentum conservation support that such law exist since t=0, at the very start of the currently accepted Big Bang that created the Universe? For me, at t=0, the angular momentum of the "primordial atom" didn't evcn existed. How come this law evolved from nothing, 14 billion years ago. The question of how angular momentum conservation applies at the very start of the Big Bang, at t=0t=0, is deeply tied to fundamental physics, cosmology, and the nature of the early universe. Let’s break it down, addressing the core of your question: how angular momentum conservation could exist or emerge from the Big Bang, given the notion that the "primordial atom" (a historical term for the initial state) might have had no angular momentum. 1. Angular Momentum Conservation and Its Basis Angular momentum conservation is a consequence of rotational symmetry in physical laws, as described by Noether’s theorem. If the laws of physics are invariant under rotations (isotropic), then angular momentum is conserved. This principle is fundamental in classical mechanics, quantum mechanics, and general relativity, and it’s expected to hold in most physical contexts unless specific conditions break this symmetry. In the context of the Big Bang, we need to consider: Whether the universe at t=0t=0 (or as close to it as our theories allow) had conditions that allowed for angular momentum conservation. How the initial state of the universe, which is often modeled as a singularity or a highly dense quantum state, relates to this conservation law. 2. The Big Bang and the Initial State (t=0t=0) The currently accepted model of the Big Bang, based on general relativity and cosmology, describes the universe as emerging from an extremely hot, dense state. At t=0t=0, the classical picture of the Big Bang involves a singularity—a point of infinite density and temperature where spacetime curvature becomes infinite. However, this singularity is not a physical "object" like a primordial atom with well-defined properties (e.g., spin or angular momentum). Instead, it’s a mathematical limit where our classical theories (general relativity) break down. Key points about the initial state: The "primordial atom" is a historical and somewhat misleading term from early cosmology (e.g., Lemaître’s hypothesis). Modern cosmology does not describe the universe as a single particle but as a quantum or relativistic state of spacetime and energy. At t=0t=0, the universe is not well-described by classical notions of angular momentum because spacetime itself is undefined. We need a quantum theory of gravity (e.g., string theory or loop quantum gravity) to describe this regime, and such theories are still speculative. Immediately after t=0t=0, during the Planck epoch (t<10−43t<10−43 seconds), the universe was governed by quantum gravitational effects, and classical concepts like angular momentum may not apply directly. 3. Theories Supporting Angular Momentum Conservation from the Early Universe Several theoretical frameworks and cosmological models address how conservation laws, including angular momentum, might apply or emerge in the early universe: a. Symmetry in the Early Universe Rotational Symmetry and Noether’s Theorem: The conservation of angular momentum relies on the isotropy of space (no preferred direction). Observations of the cosmic microwave background (CMB) suggest the universe is highly isotropic on large scales, supporting the idea that rotational symmetry was present in the early universe. If the laws of physics were rotationally invariant from the moment spacetime emerged, angular momentum conservation would hold as a fundamental principle. Quantum Cosmology: In quantum cosmological models (e.g., loop quantum cosmology), the universe avoids a true singularity, and the initial state is described by a quantum wavefunction. These models often assume fundamental symmetries, including rotational invariance, implying that angular momentum conservation is built into the fabric of the universe from the start. b. Inflation and the Early Universe The inflationary epoch (t∼10−36t∼10−36 to 10−3210−32 seconds) is a cornerstone of modern cosmology. Inflation posits that the universe underwent rapid exponential expansion, smoothing out any initial anisotropies or irregularities. If the pre-inflationary universe had any net angular momentum, inflation would dilute it to negligible levels due to the immense expansion. This is consistent with observations: the universe today shows no significant net rotation (i.e., no large-scale angular momentum). However, local angular momentum (e.g., in galaxies or stars) could arise later from quantum fluctuations amplified during inflation, which conserve angular momentum locally due to the underlying symmetry. c. Quantum Gravity and the Planck Epoch In the Planck epoch (t<10−43t<10−43 seconds), the universe was so dense that quantum gravity effects dominated. Theories like string theory or loop quantum gravity speculate that spacetime itself may have been quantized, and conservation laws might emerge from the symmetries of the underlying quantum framework. For example, in string theory, the fundamental objects (strings) obey symmetries that include rotational invariance, suggesting that angular momentum conservation could be a feature of the fundamental laws even at the earliest moments. Some models propose that the universe’s initial state was a quantum vacuum with zero net angular momentum, but quantum fluctuations could produce particle pairs or fields with locally conserved angular momentum. d. Primordial Black Holes and Spin Some speculative models suggest that primordial black holes could have formed in the early universe. Black holes have angular momentum (described by their spin parameter), and their formation would obey conservation laws. If such objects existed, their angular momentum would be part of the universe’s total budget, conserved from their formation onward. However, at t=0t=0, no such objects are thought to exist, as the universe was a singular or quantum state. 4. Why Angular Momentum Conservation Seems to "Evolve from Nothing" Your intuition that the "primordial atom" had no angular momentum is reasonable, as the initial state at t=0t=0 is not a physical object with classical properties like spin. Here’s why angular momentum conservation still holds and appears to "emerge": No Net Angular Momentum: The universe as a whole likely has zero net angular momentum, both at the start and today. This is supported by the lack of observed large-scale rotation in the CMB or galaxy distributions. Conservation laws don’t require non-zero angular momentum; they just require that the total remains constant (e.g., zero stays zero). Local Angular Momentum: Angular momentum in the universe today (e.g., spinning galaxies, stars, or particles) arises from local processes, such as gravitational collapse or quantum fluctuations, which conserve angular momentum locally. These processes trace back to the post-Big Bang era, not t=0t=0. Emergence of Classical Laws: At t=0t=0, classical concepts like angular momentum may not apply due to the quantum gravitational nature of the universe. As the universe expanded and cooled, classical spacetime emerged, and with it, the familiar conservation laws rooted in symmetries like isotropy. The "evolution" of angular momentum conservation is thus tied to the emergence of classical physics from a quantum regime. 5. Challenges and Open Questions Singularity and Quantum Gravity: Since general relativity breaks down at t=0t=0, we lack a definitive theory to describe whether angular momentum conservation holds in the singular or quantum state. 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