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Failed to connect to MySQL: (1203) User howardkn already has more than 'max_user_connections' active connectionsPath: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 19:18:35 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 154 Message-ID: <101g68s$1i7tb$1@dont-email.me> References: <101a7uv$3vfam$5@dont-email.me> <101br7m$db03$1@dont-email.me> <101cjk7$hfof$7@dont-email.me> <101e8ak$vhu7$1@dont-email.me> <101etan$14dr4$2@dont-email.me> <101fbth$173bb$13@dont-email.me> <101fcgj$19e5f$2@dont-email.me> <101fia9$1cj4h$1@dont-email.me> <101fl5a$1dfmq$1@dont-email.me> <101fvok$1gaq8$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2025 02:18:38 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="374f46009fb02b2e899a48ce6778c808"; logging-data="1646507"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18PAbE71by3neFdsBXQCkdE" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:1kVcio9erhWwiAZ2dET5jSu5l6Q= X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250531-4, 5/31/2025), Outbound message In-Reply-To: <101fvok$1gaq8$1@dont-email.me> Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Bytes: 7625 On 5/31/2025 5:27 PM, Mike Terry wrote: > On 31/05/2025 20:26, dbush wrote: >> On 5/31/2025 2:38 PM, olcott wrote: >>> On 5/31/2025 11:59 AM, dbush wrote: >>>> On 5/31/2025 12:48 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>> On 5/31/2025 7:39 AM, dbush wrote: >>>>>> On 5/31/2025 2:41 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>> On 5/30/2025 8:16 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>> On 5/30/25 11:41 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 5/30/2025 3:45 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 2025-05-29 18:10:39 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/29/2025 12:34 PM, Mr Flibble wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 🧠 Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In the classical framework of computation theory (Turing >>>>>>>>>>>> machines), >>>>>>>>>>>> simulation is not equivalent to execution, though they can >>>>>>>>>>>> approximate one >>>>>>>>>>>> another. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To the best of my knowledge a simulated input >>>>>>>>>>> always has the exact same behavior as the directly >>>>>>>>>>> executed input unless this simulated input calls >>>>>>>>>>> its own simulator. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The simulation of the behaviour should be equivalent to the real >>>>>>>>>> behaviour. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That is the same as saying a function with infinite >>>>>>>>> recursion must have the same behavior as a function >>>>>>>>> without infinite recursion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nope. Where does it say that? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _DDD() >>>>>>> [00002192] 55             push ebp >>>>>>> [00002193] 8bec           mov ebp,esp >>>>>>> [00002195] 6892210000     push 00002192 >>>>>>> [0000219a] e833f4ffff     call 000015d2  // call HHH >>>>>>> [0000219f] 83c404         add esp,+04 >>>>>>> [000021a2] 5d             pop ebp >>>>>>> [000021a3] c3             ret >>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [000021a3] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH must be aborted.   // otherwise infinite >>>>>>> recursion >>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH1 need not be aborted. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And the simulation performed by each of these is the same up to >>>>>> the point that HHH aborts, as you have admitted on the record: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No moron they are not. >>>>> HHH performs one whole recursive emulation of DDD >>>>> than HHH1 ever does BEFORE HHH EVER ABORTS. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Nope, if that was true you would have previously identified the >>>> divergence but failed to do so. >>>> >>> >>> The code has proved that it is true for three years. >> >> False. >> >> That you are unable to see that the side by side code traces are >> exactly the same up the the point that HHH aborts is not a rebuttal. > > Right.  I've presented such comparisons for PO on multiple occasions, > but it's like he looks at the post, and simply can't see what it's > saying - like there's a big hole in the post or something.  It brings to > mind the Oliver Sacks book "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat". > > Mike. > > We cannot do a separate side-by-side execution trace of HHH(DDD) and HHH1(DDD) because the DDD simulated by HHH1 calls HHH(DDD) as a part of this same simulation. From the trace shown below we can see that HHH simulates DDD one whole execution trace more than HHH1 does. *It is only after this whole extra recursive emulation* *divergence that HHH aborts its emulated DDD* _DDD() [00002183] 55 push ebp [00002184] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00002186] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD [0000218b] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH [00002190] 83c404 add esp,+04 [00002193] 5d pop ebp [00002194] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0018) [00002194] _main() [000021a3] 55 push ebp [000021a4] 8bec mov ebp,esp [000021a6] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD [000021ab] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ; call HHH1 [000021b0] 83c404 add esp,+04 [000021b3] 33c0 xor eax,eax [000021b5] 5d pop ebp [000021b6] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0020) [000021b6] machine stack stack machine assembly address address data code language ======== ======== ======== ========== ============= [000021a3][0010382d][00000000] 55 push ebp [000021a4][0010382d][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp [000021a6][00103829][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD [000021ab][00103825][000021b0] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ; call HHH1 New slave_stack at:1038d1 Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:1138d9 [00002183][001138c9][001138cd] 55 push ebp [00002184][001138c9][001138cd] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00002186][001138c5][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD [0000218b][001138c1][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH New slave_stack at:14e2f9 Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:15e301 [00002183][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 55 push ebp [00002184][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00002186][0015e2ed][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD [0000218b][0015e2e9][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH New slave_stack at:198d21 [00002183][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 55 push ebp [00002184][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00002186][001a8d15][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD [0000218b][001a8d11][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped [00002190][001138c9][001138cd] 83c404 add esp,+04 [00002193][001138cd][000015a8] 5d pop ebp [00002194][001138d1][0003a980] c3 ret [000021b0][0010382d][00000000] 83c404 add esp,+04 [000021b3][0010382d][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax [000021b5][00103831][00000018] 5d pop ebp [000021b6][00103835][00000000] c3 ret Number of Instructions Executed(352831) == 5266 Pages -- Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer