Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Date: Wed, 21 May 2025 14:49:41 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 76 Message-ID: <100laol$30aak$6@dont-email.me> References: <1e4f1a15826e67e7faf7a3c2104d09e9dadc6f06.camel@gmail.com> <10053hb$3759k$1@dont-email.me> <879b3c552bad9da9885e41a298b570c92bef1aaf.camel@gmail.com> <10061h6$3de5f$1@dont-email.me> <4bce5af2b2b8cd198af611e5d8d56598cab15b0a.camel@gmail.com> <10067ok$3ib39$1@dont-email.me> <1007lrp$3r388$1@dont-email.me> <0cbe88d46c63af596e4d2ad6a846e61b7efb14bb.camel@gmail.com> <1008fhf$53u$1@dont-email.me> <100a7e4$efgi$1@dont-email.me> <100aolc$hq2u$1@dont-email.me> <943f3512f1c253f770eb41519145d4159c0cd6aa.camel@gmail.com> <100dhiv$167g2$1@dont-email.me> <100dl69$16uka$1@dont-email.me> <100dloh$16vdn$2@dont-email.me> <100e840$1e4fq$1@dont-email.me> <100eapg$1ee1a$2@dont-email.me> <100f87j$1k6ri$1@dont-email.me> <100jl2b$2m26r$1@dont-email.me> <100lad9$30b4k$5@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Wed, 21 May 2025 21:49:42 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="7faeabb3f4a2e362069c5f0f1728441c"; logging-data="3156308"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1++imwWbQyYTe4lOcjMouxZ" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:cUsqdG2n8u2RFHiL5mRS0A4iSyY= X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250521-10, 5/21/2025), Outbound message Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus-Status: Clean In-Reply-To: <100lad9$30b4k$5@dont-email.me> On 5/21/2025 2:43 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: > Op 21.mei.2025 om 06:33 schreef olcott: >> On 5/19/2025 7:29 AM, Mikko wrote: >>> On 2025-05-19 04:07:11 +0000, olcott said: >>> >>>> On 5/18/2025 10:21 PM, André G. Isaak wrote: >>>>> On 2025-05-18 16:08, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 5/18/2025 4:58 PM, André G. Isaak wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> In English, both 'description' and 'specification' can refer to >>>>>>> something which is either complete or only partial. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Description typically means partial and >>>>>> specification typically means complete. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't think you'll find that most people will agree with this. >>>>> That might be your usage. >>>>> >>>>> The problem is that 'specification' has already been used in much >>>>> of this discussion to mean something else. A TM's specification >>>>> outlines what it is that that TM is supposed to do without going >>>>> into the details of how it actually does it. >>>>> >>>> >>>> When you refer to the spec of an algorithm you >>>> are correct. When you refer to the every single >>>> step of the exact behavior that a finite string >>>> specified you are wrong. >>>> >>>>> For example, the specification of a Parity Decider would be a TM >>>>> takes a representation of a natural number as its initial tape >>>>> content and accepts it only if it is even. >>>>> >>>>> The description of that machine, on the other hand, would describe >>>>> what the alphabet of this machine is, what it's state transitions >>>>> are, etc. i.e. it would give all the information necessary to >>>>> actually construct the machine. >>>>> >>>>> André >>>>> >>>> >>>> I already know how TM machine descriptions actually work. >>>> >>>> DDD simulated by HHH1 has the exact same >>>> sequence of steps as the directly executed DDD(). >>>> >>>> People here think that when DDD is simulated by >>>> the same simulator that it calls (thus causing >>>> recursive simulation) that DDD must have the same >>>> behavior as DDD simulated by HHH1 that DDD does >>>> not call. >>> >>> The behaviour of DDD is the behaviour that DDD specifies. If some >>> program simulaates differently then it does not simulate the >>> behaviour of DDD. >>> >> >> >> It's not that hard really. >> When an input calls its own simulator with itself as input >> THIS DOES CHANGE ITS BEHAVIOR. >> > > There is only one DDD that uses the algorithm of only one HHH. How can > that be different? Its over-your-head. You are so indoctrinated with the infallible word of textbook that you disagree with the verified facts of actual execution traces. -- Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer