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Failed to connect to MySQL: (1203) User howardkn already has more than 'max_user_connections' active connectionsPath: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Bobbie Sellers Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written Subject: Re: Snow Was: Smoking. Was: Clarke Award Finalists 2001 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2025 15:44:36 -0700 Organization: dis Lines: 112 Message-ID: <103pr8l$tuc4$1@dont-email.me> References: <102p80r$7v6$1@panix2.panix.com> <102ppji$1qlp8$1@dont-email.me> <102qvdj$26rs3$1@dont-email.me> <102svt1$2mtsj$1@dont-email.me> <103024i$3l9u8$1@dont-email.me> <1031vcv$4uht$1@dont-email.me> <103dfs6$1r9dj$4@dont-email.me> <103ivki$3bssl$1@dont-email.me> <103k792$3knid$1@dont-email.me> <103kpdq$3o6j8$1@dont-email.me> <103n1b3$cb55$1@dont-email.me> <17306ktfp99upigml83bdbpeuu55sci1oc@4ax.com> <103peke$11e41$1@dont-email.me> Reply-To: blissInSanFrancisco@mouse-potato.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 00:44:38 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="fa8164b813cc0da468e54346c5f61288"; logging-data="981380"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/uKWtwUYU6TEND1ygBMApb" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:ZNe0phh0x8bo/Y4njqPSx4ucAuM= Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <103peke$11e41$1@dont-email.me> On 6/28/25 12:08, William Hyde wrote: > Paul S Person wrote: >> On Fri, 27 Jun 2025 17:09:42 -0400, William Hyde > > [...] > >>> It wasn't only England, though.  Napoleon's family had to dig through >>> ancient records in Italy to prove noble ancestry before he could be >>> accepted for officer training in the French Army. >> >> Nor was it restricted to the Navy. >> >> Another consideration is that the pay was (in the higher ranks) >> insufficient to meet the social obligations. A private income was >> necessary. > > It's a point often made by C. S. Forester  that Hornblower didn't have > the money needed to support his position socially, until he got some > decent prize money. > > Nelson, on half pay between the US revolution and the French, was also > short of money, living cheaply in the countryside on a Captain's half > pay.  Prize money began to come his way when he was appointed to a ship > of the line in the Med, but IIRC money problems continued. > > When there was some talk of his being made a baronet after Cape St > Vincent he demurred, saying that he didn't have sufficient money to > support hereditary honours.  After the Nile, things were different and > he accepted a barony. > > In William's "The Praxis", a non-noble warrant officer is promoted to > commissioned status and has the same problems. > > >> Nor was it restricted to England. Germany drew its officers mostly >> from the aristocracy through WW2. The Waffen-SS, OTOH, did not. >> >> After WW2, this pretty much died (royal sons [and maybe daughters now] >> may still spend some time in a military service, but that is generally >> temporary). Militaries became both professionalized and very technical >> -- just having a title and and income and a winning smile/pleasant >> personality was no longer enough. Actual knowledge of how to use the >> various types of units (often determined by their equipment) became >> necessary. > > Most of the aristocratic types in Nelson's navy were actually quite > competent technically and usually inured to battle. Those who were not > were weeded out in the early years of war - admittedly at some cost. > > > A century earlier, at the start of a new war, for example, a couple of > admiral Benbow's officers declined to fight -  as the song says: > > > "Brave Benbow he set sail, for to fight > For to fight > Brave Benbow he set sail, for to fight. > Brave Benbow he set sail, > With a fine and pleasant gale > But his captains they turn'd tail > In a fright, in a fright. > > Says Kirby unto Wade, "We will run, > We will run." > Says Kirby unto Wade, "We will run. > For I value no disgrace > Or the losing of my place > But the enemy I won't face > Nor his guns, nor his guns."" > > It is perhaps no coincidence that Benbow was not particularly > aristocratic in ancestry, that he served for some time in the merchant > navy, and that he attained Lieutenant's rank rather late, having served > as Master, a rank which was something of a dead end as far as naval > commands went. Kirby and Wade may not have thought him to be a real > Admiral.  Not one of their crowd. > >> >> Not to mention that the shear size of the militaries (as a proportion >> of population) pretty much forced some relaxation of the normal rules. > > A good point. > > Especially when, in WWI, many upper class British men declined to serve > as officers, preferring the ranks.  To be fair, they probably didn't > know early in the war how much safer that was. > >> >>>>       Education was not evenly distributed then or now. >>> >>> In those days aristocrats could get university degrees merely by showing >>> up  No exams for them!  Why, they might finish worse than a commoner! >> >> Besides, it's not as if they would ever have to work for a living. >> >> I still remember the Monty Python "Upper Class Twit of the Year" >> episode I'm sure each of the contestants had a univeristy degree. > > I think Bertie Wooster managed to avoid a degree. Ah but Bertram had talent. Playing the piano jazzily. Read as many of the Wooster Chronicles as I could find but the TV series sticks in my mind and those two actors will forever haunt my mind. Jeeves forever! > > William Hyde bliss