Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 11:27:48 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 150 Message-ID: <101ps65$ta6v$8@dont-email.me> References: <101a7uv$3vfam$5@dont-email.me> <101br7m$db03$1@dont-email.me> <101cjk7$hfof$7@dont-email.me> <101hdjt$21ui2$1@dont-email.me> <101iheg$2h3fr$1@dont-email.me> <101jhvm$33lln$1@dont-email.me> <101kfl3$3bfvj$4@dont-email.me> <101m9ps$3srp4$1@dont-email.me> <101nltk$7qau$10@dont-email.me> <101osq3$mlio$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2025 18:27:49 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2e2917af8031656e2bdefa3bdb47b104"; logging-data="960735"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19swWRQ/Fe8vh1wyI/jL6Y4" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:h01vTQfdBJxJ8ZhxgqwyFY69h8E= In-Reply-To: <101osq3$mlio$1@dont-email.me> X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250604-4, 6/4/2025), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Content-Language: en-US On 6/4/2025 2:32 AM, Mikko wrote: > On 2025-06-03 20:28:36 +0000, olcott said: > >> On 6/3/2025 2:55 AM, Mikko wrote: >>> On 2025-06-02 15:23:15 +0000, olcott said: >>> >>>> On 6/2/2025 1:56 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>> On 2025-06-01 21:41:36 +0000, olcott said: >>>>> >>>>>> On 6/1/2025 6:30 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>> On 2025-05-30 15:41:59 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/30/2025 3:45 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 2025-05-29 18:10:39 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/29/2025 12:34 PM, Mr Flibble wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 🧠 Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In the classical framework of computation theory (Turing >>>>>>>>>>> machines), >>>>>>>>>>> simulation is not equivalent to execution, though they can >>>>>>>>>>> approximate one >>>>>>>>>>> another. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To the best of my knowledge a simulated input >>>>>>>>>> always has the exact same behavior as the directly >>>>>>>>>> executed input unless this simulated input calls >>>>>>>>>> its own simulator. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The simulation of the behaviour should be equivalent to the real >>>>>>>>> behaviour. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That is the same as saying a function with infinite >>>>>>>> recursion must have the same behavior as a function >>>>>>>> without infinite recursion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A function does not have a behaviour. A function has a value for >>>>>>> every argument in its domain. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A function is not recursive. A definition of a function can be >>>>>>> recursive. There may be another way to define the same function >>>>>>> without recursion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A definition of a function may use infinite recursion if it is also >>>>>>> defined how that infinite recursion defines a value. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, from the meaning of "simulation" follows that a simulation >>>>>>> of a behaviour is (at least in some sense) similar to the real >>>>>>> behaviour. Otherwise no simulation has happened. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> void DDD() >>>>>> { >>>>>>    HHH(DDD); >>>>>>    return; >>>>>> } >>>>>> >>>>>> The *input* to simulating termination analyzer HHH(DDD) >>>>>> specifies recursive simulation that can never reach its >>>>>> *simulated "return" instruction final halt state* >>>>> >>>>> It does not matter whether a particular simulation does or does not >>>>> reach its "return" instruction. >>>> >>>> It completely matters. DDD correctly simulated by HHH >>>> proves the exact behavior that the input to HHH(DDD) >>>> actually specifies. >>> >>> It proves nothing without a proof that DDD is correctly simulated by >>> HHH. >> >> I have shown that proof too many times and people >> denied the very obvious verified facts of it. > > You have never shown any proof of anything. But a verifiable and verified > fact is that DDD halts. An obvious conseqence of that fact is that every > report that means 'DDD does not halt' is wrong. > When I provide proof that you cannot understand this does not mean that I did not provide proof. _DDD() [00002183] 55 push ebp [00002184] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00002186] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD [0000218b] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH [00002190] 83c404 add esp,+04 [00002193] 5d pop ebp [00002194] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0018) [00002194] _main() [000021a3] 55 push ebp [000021a4] 8bec mov ebp,esp [000021a6] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD [000021ab] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ; call HHH1 [000021b0] 83c404 add esp,+04 [000021b3] 33c0 xor eax,eax [000021b5] 5d pop ebp [000021b6] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0020) [000021b6] machine stack stack machine assembly address address data code language ======== ======== ======== ========== ============= [000021a3][0010382d][00000000] 55 push ebp ; main() [000021a4][0010382d][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; main() [000021a6][00103829][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD [000021ab][00103825][000021b0] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ; call HHH1 New slave_stack at:1038d1 Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:1138d9 [00002183][001138c9][001138cd] 55 push ebp ; DDD of HHH1 [00002184][001138c9][001138cd] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; DDD of HHH1 [00002186][001138c5][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD [0000218b][001138c1][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH New slave_stack at:14e2f9 Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:15e301 [00002183][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 55 push ebp ; DDD of HHH[0] [00002184][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; DDD of HHH[0] [00002186][0015e2ed][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD [0000218b][0015e2e9][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH New slave_stack at:198d21 *The above DDD emulated by HHH1 and DDD emulated by HHH exactly match* *The below DDD emulated by HHH a second time that HHH1 never does* [00002183][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 55 push ebp ; DDD of HHH[1] [00002184][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; DDD of HHH[1] [00002186][001a8d15][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD [0000218b][001a8d11][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped [00002190][001138c9][001138cd] 83c404 add esp,+04 ; DDD of HHH1 [00002193][001138cd][000015a8] 5d pop ebp ; DDD of HHH1 [00002194][001138d1][0003a980] c3 ret ; DDD of HHH1 [000021b0][0010382d][00000000] 83c404 add esp,+04 ; main() [000021b3][0010382d][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax ; main() [000021b5][00103831][00000018] 5d pop ebp ; main() [000021b6][00103835][00000000] c3 ret ; main() Number of Instructions Executed(352831) == 5266 Pages -- Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer