Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Mikko Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: How do computations actually work? Date: Wed, 28 May 2025 10:43:31 +0300 Organization: - Lines: 73 Message-ID: <1016er3$354rb$1@dont-email.me> References: <100jpv9$2m0ln$4@dont-email.me> <100kt0c$2tae8$3@dont-email.me> <100ktr7$2reaa$1@dont-email.me> <100l09v$2tae8$5@dont-email.me> <100l1ov$2ul3j$1@dont-email.me> <100l3jh$2v0e9$1@dont-email.me> <100l5c8$2ul3j$2@dont-email.me> <100l75g$2vpq3$1@dont-email.me> <100l887$2ul3i$2@dont-email.me> <100l9gh$30aak$1@dont-email.me> <100lc4o$30pgm$1@dont-email.me> <100ld1u$312c9$1@dont-email.me> <100lg4g$31jt3$1@dont-email.me> <100lkdv$32ib3$1@dont-email.me> <100lmif$32v06$1@dont-email.me> <100lmp3$32ven$1@dont-email.me> <100m319$38k55$2@dont-email.me> <87jz69xlpx.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <100mder$39slu$2@dont-email.me> <100oipb$3oge1$1@dont-email.me> <100onkd$3t5cb$1@dont-email.me> <100rti1$jfld$1@dont-email.me> <100so11$p071$5@dont-email.me> <100un10$1a22r$1@dont-email.me> <100vasi$1d5lg$10@dont-email.me> <10119o9$1u1o3$1@dont-email.me> <101230n$22da5$9@dont-email.me> <1013tk3$2hj2v$1@dont-email.me> <1014mru$2lsi8$10@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Wed, 28 May 2025 09:43:32 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="4d65ac626a85e0b2f5d51ba1a2ed3e15"; logging-data="3314539"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18A3yZ62+9bGqn/zmEKwRd4" User-Agent: Unison/2.2 Cancel-Lock: sha1:4YbbOR+903HnI2+RUfQgJ5U/09g= On 2025-05-27 15:48:14 +0000, olcott said: > On 5/27/2025 3:37 AM, Mikko wrote: >> On 2025-05-26 15:57:11 +0000, olcott said: >> >>> On 5/26/2025 3:46 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>> On 2025-05-25 14:53:06 +0000, olcott said: >>>> >>>>> On 5/25/2025 4:14 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>> On 2025-05-24 15:18:57 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/2025 2:47 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>> On 2025-05-23 02:47:40 +0000, olcott changed the subject to >>>>>>>>> How do computations actually work? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Each computation works differently. It does not matter how it works as >>>>>>>> long as there are instructions that fully specify how that computation >>>>>>>> shall be performed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All termination analyzers are required to report on the >>>>>>> behavior that their input finite string specifies. >>>>>> >>>>>> To report correctly. Though the input string to a termination analyzer >>>>>> usially is incomlete: the input string usually specifies different >>>>>> behavours depending on the input that is not shown to the termination >>>>>> analyzer, and the analyzer's report must cover all of them. >>>>>> >>>>>> A partial termination analyzer may fail to report but is not allowed >>>>>> to report incorrectly. >>>>> >>>>> void DDD() >>>>> { >>>>>    HHH(DDD); >>>>>    return; >>>>> } >>>>> >>>>> DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its >>>>> "return" statement final halt state, only liars >>>>> will disagree. >>>> >>>> Again a straw man deception. Where reasonable people disgraee is the >>>> relevance of that claim. The behavour specified by DDD does reach the >>>> final return from DDD. Whether HHH can simulate that part of the >>>> behaviour is irrelevant. Even without the simjlation HHH decides >>>> correctly if and only if it determines and reports that DDD halts. >>> >>> _DDD() >>> [00002192] 55             push ebp >>> [00002193] 8bec           mov ebp,esp >>> [00002195] 6892210000     push 00002192 >>> [0000219a] e833f4ffff     call 000015d2  // call HHH >>> [0000219f] 83c404         add esp,+04 >>> [000021a2] 5d             pop ebp >>> [000021a3] c3             ret >>> Size in bytes:(0018) [000021a3] >>> >>> How many recursive emulations does HHH have to >>> wait before its emulated DDD magically halts >>> on its own without ever needing to be aborted? >> >> In order to determine that you need a program that simulates DDD and all >> functios DDD calls and detects and counts and reports emulation levels. > > No you don't. All that you need to do is simply imagine > that HHH is an x86 emulator capable of emulating itself > emulating DDD. // *This is fully operational code* Well, you needn't if you have a good substitution. But imagination is not a good substitution of real work with a real tool. -- Mikko