Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP Date: Fri, 16 May 2025 10:19:54 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 64 Message-ID: <1007l2q$3qb7l$12@dont-email.me> References: <1000ce4$21dtc$3@dont-email.me> <1000q52$24gr3$2@dont-email.me> <1000qss$24jh0$2@dont-email.me> <1000rfv$24gr3$6@dont-email.me> <1000s0e$24sr2$1@dont-email.me> <1000s6d$24gr3$8@dont-email.me> <1000t1a$24sr2$4@dont-email.me> <1000t8e$24gr3$11@dont-email.me> <1000vs5$29e7u$1@dont-email.me> <100101g$24gr3$14@dont-email.me> <10011b6$29e7u$4@dont-email.me> <10012le$24gr3$17@dont-email.me> <1001370$2a1j4$1@dont-email.me> <100172f$2ao7o$1@dont-email.me> <10017lb$2aojt$1@dont-email.me> <100184e$2asas$1@dont-email.me> <10018ij$2aut2$1@dont-email.me> <100197l$2asas$2@dont-email.me> <1002ev3$2i4bk$20@dont-email.me> <1002fk4$2j9i8$1@dont-email.me> <1002h7l$2jlcp$1@dont-email.me> <1002j46$2k04b$2@dont-email.me> <1002jgi$2k00a$2@dont-email.me> <03a64509e01f8c0d311aefc1c3b598892d61462b@i2pn2.org> <1007gdq$3ppvi$1@dont-email.me> <2bc7e7f24ae7d0847b2787ce2ed824bce1e8257c@i2pn2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Fri, 16 May 2025 17:19:55 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="a793c50ac46b1404361ae4f1062ef558"; logging-data="4009205"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/FUyj7DJcj/h2qDNQHdTcj" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:lh/O3rhv2upNHeDr3XIoT/KPMJ8= X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250516-4, 5/16/2025), Outbound message Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <2bc7e7f24ae7d0847b2787ce2ed824bce1e8257c@i2pn2.org> X-Antivirus-Status: Clean On 5/16/2025 9:09 AM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 5/16/25 10:00 AM, olcott wrote: >> On 5/16/2025 8:25 AM, joes wrote: >>> Am Wed, 14 May 2025 12:22:26 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>>> On 5/14/2025 12:15 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote: >>>>> On 14/05/2025 17:43, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 5/14/2025 11:16 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote: >>>>>>> On 14/05/2025 17:04, olcott wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The HP proofs require an input D that can actually do the opposite >>>>>>>> of whatever value that H returns. Such an input cannot possibly >>>>>>>> exist. >>>>>>> Agreed. That is precisely what Turing proved. >>>>>> The proof itself cannot exist because it is missing a key element. >>> >>> Yes, it is missing the halt decider. >>> >>>> When you try to encode *AN INPUT* that actually does the opposite of >>>> whatever value that its termination analyzer returns in a fully >>>> specified language such as C you will find this is impossible. >>> DD is exactly that. >>> >>>> In a less fully specified language it is far too easy to get confused >>>> about what *AN INPUT* is and what it is not. >>> DD (or its code) calling the aborting HHH is the input. >>> >> >> int main() >> { >>    DD(); // Only idiots expect HHH to report on its caller. >> } >> > > Only PATHOLOGICAL LIARS excpet that the call HHH(DD) doesn't mean to > answer about what the actual DD does when run, > > Oh, I guess that answers who you are. > > You just admitted that you think the truth is idiotic. Mike explains all of the details of how the Sipser quote does derive a correct Simulating Halt Decider. On 5/14/2025 7:36 PM, Mike Terry wrote: > There is a natural (and correct) statement that Sipser > is far more likely (I'd say) to have agreed to. > > First you should understand the basic idea behind a > "Simulating Halt Decider" (*SHD*) that /partially/ > simulates its input, while observing each simulation > step looking for certain halting/non-halting patterns > in the simulation. A simple (working) example here > is an input which goes into a tight loop. (Mike says much more about this) *Click here to get the whole article* https://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3C1003cu5%242p3g1%241%40dont-email.me%3E Message-ID: <1003cu5$2p3g1$1@dont-email.me> -- Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer